Rolling Block 2 band Musketoon - Help with ID

[DavidA]

Along with a Serbian Mauser and a Greek Gras carbine, I have just come across this two band Rolling Block Musketoon or short rifle, allegedly they were all found together . The first two have been sold and I have just bought the Remington

It has no Egyptian or arabic script markings, and the calibre is either .43 Spanish or Egyptian, I haven't checked the calibre yet, there is small cartouche on the side of the butt, with the script initials ER within a circle

There is no bayonet bar, and consequently the stock finishes higher than on the Egyptian musketoon, the barrel bands are held in place by side springs rather than Baddely bands with the bottom screw. There is no provision for sling mounts, apart from the hole in the front of the trigger guard

The tang has the Remington patent dates as shown in the attached pics

I would welcome any help on identifying to whom it may have been supplied

Thx

[DavidA]

Three more pics attached

[tjack]

What is the length of the barrel from the end of the muzzle to the face of the breech block? Also, in one of your photos there is a stamp on the side of the barrel band. Is that a "U" or a crown? Caliber would be helpful or, at least use a caliper to measure the very back end of the chamber. The 11mm Spanish cartridge has a base of approx. .516"; the Egyptian cartridge has a base diameter of approx. .581". Your chamber should measure slightly larger that either of these to allow for expansion.

[DavidA]

The barrel length is 30", the bands are stamped neither with a crown or nor a U, but with what appears to be a star.

The knox and barrel also are stamped with an R

I can't do the chamber measurements at present as I am away from home.

Look forward to your thoughts

Thank you

David

[tjack]

Well, the 30" bbl puts it in the category of a "civil guard" model. However, it once had a rear sling swivel mounted at the front of the trigger guard and I don't see a sling swivel on the barrel bands. It does not look like it has a saber bayonet lug on the muzzle. So, it looks like your rifle may have been modified from another form. Caliber ID would help narrow things down.

[DavidA]

Thanks Tjack, it has no bayonet bar, however it is not a shortened three band rifle, as with the band fixing, if it had been shortened would show the old fixings, overall it is untouched.

Also both the knox, barrel and butt have Remington view or acceptance marks, granted the question of the mount on the trigger guard is interesting, however perhaps originally it had a front sling mount and rear, or on the over hand perhaps not.

I'll see what the chamber measurement brings, and thank you for the dimensions

Regards

David

[DavidA]

As an update, Have checked the rim and chamber dimensions, there are :-

Rim - .675" Base .565"

11.43 x 50 (.43) Egyptian has a base of .581, however outside of COTW, I have seen published .43 Egyptian as .668 rim with .542 base which would fit.

11.43 x 49 Roumanian Peabody is published as .657 rim and .562 base

11.43 x 49mm Turkish Peabody is published as .668 rim and .560 base

For comparison Spanish Remington (.43 Spanish) is .635 rim and .516 base

So the nearest is Turkish Peabody ( unlikely) or Roumanian Peabody, can anyone tell me how my dimensions compare with a standard .43 Egyptian chamber and extractor ring dimension.

Am I right to rule out the .43 Spanish calibre

Data courtesy of www.cartridge-corner.com

Many thanks

David

[tjack]

It is possible that you have one of those rifles rechambered from 11mm Spanish to 11mm Mannlicher. There was a time (1960's, 1970's ?) when 11mm Spanish ammo was unobtainable but there was a lot of surplus of 11mm Mannlicher ammo available. Some people, like Bill Wescome, stamped the barrel with "11Mann" to signify this. Others did not. I'll look more closely tomorrow at your figures to see if that is what I would guess your rifle is chambered for.

[DavidA]

Thanks for the update, I found in course of my researchs that Remington converted some Argentine Remingtons still in store during the 1950's to 11mm Mannlicher, as you say the 11 mm mannlicher ammo was around at that time in quantity.

However this particular piece I believe has been sitting in an attic in England for some many years, after been brought back with the Serb 78/80 Mauser and Greek Gras carbine, they were all in a similar condition, so I rather get the feeling that they hadn't been touched for some considerable time.

All of which points me in the direction of the Balkans / Middle East, but with the ubiquitous Remington who knows.

[tjack]

A chamber cast would be very helpful. However, here is what I can come up with; not sure if this will be helpful or not.....
yours: rim (r) .675"
base (b) .565"
Egyptian (according to Hoyem and Huon)
r from .575 to .582" (different samples)
b from .642 to .663" (different samples
base is not compatible with yours
Roumanian (Huon) r .663"
b .577"
Roumanian (Hoyem) r .657"
b .562"
MAY (?) be compatible with yours (here is where a chamber cast comes in handy to see if there is compatibility to the cartridge configuration).
Turkish (Hoyem) r .668"
b .581"
May be compatible to yours. Need a chamber cast to compare.
11mm Mannlicher r .618"
b .542"
May be compatible as above
11mm Gras r .662"
b .540
May be compatible as above
11mm Albini r .683"
b .588"
Not compatible
Several of these cartridges are quite similar, differing in length of neck/location of shoulder. None of these, with the exception of the Egyptian and Albini , have I seen chambered ORIGINALLY in a Rolling Block.
Just to be inclusive, the Spanish ctg has a rim of .642" and a base of .520" (Huon) which is not very compatible with yours.
Huon, Jean "Military Rifle and Machine Gun Cartridges"
Hoyem, George "The History and Development of Small Arms Ammunition Vol 2" .
A lot of time has pasted since these old rifles have been used. Anything could have been done to a chamber at one time or another.
Also, it was not Remington who ran 11mm Mannlicher chamber reamers into Spanish chambered Rolling Blocks but secondary dealers after they were imported back into the USofA.
Good luck!!!!!

[DavidA]

Tjack, many thanks for your research and advice, I am now awaiting a half pound block of casting alloy, due to where I am this will be a couple of weeks arriving.

As soon I can make a cast then , I will post the result, and see where we go from there.

Kind regards

DavidA