Rolling Block Sporting Shotgun

[marlinman93]

Picked this up in a two rifle deal recently. Poor pictures sent via cell phone, and seller said "unknown caliber". But price was cheap enough to consider I was at least paying for an action. When the two arrived it turned out to be an early Rolling Block 20 gauge shotgun! The bore is excellent, and has pretty nice finish on wood, and great barrel bluing. Wood has the Remington steel shotgun buttplate like my two Creedmoor Rolling Blocks have. Appears to be the old 2.5" 20 gauge shell chamber.
I pulled the buttstock to check numbers and upper and lower tangs have a low 700 number. But surprised to see #44 stamped in the wood under the top tang.








The other is a pretty decent Ballard #3 .22RF with an excellent bore, and a real keeper too.

[aardq]

Hi Marlinman,

Can you please post a photo of the left side of the receiver?
Thank you,
Daniel

[marlinman93]

Hi Marlinman,

Can you please post a photo of the left side of the receiver?
Thank you,
Daniel

I can, but there are no markings at all on the left side receiver. Only markings are on the top tang, typical Remington 3 line rollstamp there.

[ChuckD]

Some people might not be aware that early single barrel Remington shot guns would shoot a 16ga. brass shell or a 20ga paper shell.
There were a couple of articles on single barrel shotguns in last years RSA Journals. Yours looks like it would be a good shooter.

[marlinman93]

Some people might not be aware that early single barrel Remington shot guns would shoot a 16ga. brass shell or a 20ga paper shell.
There were a couple of articles on single barrel shotguns in last years RSA Journals. Yours looks like it would be a good shooter.

This seems to be an impossibility that I'm puzzled by? I've got both 20 ga. and 16 ga. shells in both brass and paper hulls, and the 16 ga. and 20 ga. are not the same size, or even close. A 16 ga. wont fit in a 20 ga., and a 20 ga. rattles around in the chamber of a 16 ga. And the OD of a brass shell is identical to the same gauge paper shell, so that doesn't make sense either?
I believe this rumor began when some early Rolling Block shotguns used a common barrel ID, but were chambered in either 16 ga. or 20 ga. at the chamber. So when measuring the muzzle ID the two shotgun sizes were the same, but chambers were different. I don't see how any shotgun could properly shoot both sizes?

[ChuckD]

Marlinman,
I can't argue with facts. However, Flayderman's states, for Model #1 and #2 Rolling Block Shotguns ( 5E-094 & 5E-094.5) shells could interchange, 16ga. brass and 20ga. paper. I assumed the diameter of the 16ga.brass was the same as 20ga paper.
My rollers are both 12ga. so can't check. We'll take your word on this.
Enjoy yours,
Chu ck

[marlinman93]

Marlinman,
I can't argue with facts. However, Flayderman's states, for Model #1 and #2 Rolling Block Shotguns ( 5E-094 & 5E-094.5) shells could interchange, 16ga. brass and 20ga. paper. I assumed the diameter of the 16ga.brass was the same as 20ga paper.
My rollers are both 12ga. so can't check. We'll take your word on this.
Enjoy yours,
Chu ck

Flayderman's is incorrect. Both brass and paper or plastic hulls are the same size. So a 20 gauge hull is the same size regardless of brass, paper, or plastic. And the same for a 16 gauge, regardless.
I was told that all the early barrels were 16 gauge, but were chambered for either 16 ga. or 20 ga. chambers, which caused Flayderman's and other's confusion.
A 16 ga. has a .819" rim and .785" base diameter. A 20 ga. has a .766" rim, and .730" base diameter. For any material cases are made from.

[Researcher]

You guys are talking about modern shotgun shells. Back in the day, brass shells came in A and B sizes for each gauge. Those marked A were for use in guns made for paper shells, and those marked B were for guns made for brass shells only. From an 1880 Union Metallic Cartridge Co. price list --

1880 empty brass shotshells.png (196.04 KiB) Viewed 6130 times

[ChuckD]

Researcher,

Thanks for explaining the difference between the old shell sizes and new. Would these all be black powder loads?
Do we know when "B" brass was phased out? Just curious not really a shotgun guy.

Thanks for sharing your extensive knowledge.
ChuckD

[Researcher]

The earliest smokeless shotgun powder, Wood, actually came out in 1876, but smokeless didn't really begin to take hold until the big companies began providing factory loaded shells. Union Metallic Cartridge Co. in 1891 and Winchester pretty quickly thereafter. Prior to that, they only provided NPEs and shooters loaded their own or the local hardware or sporting goods store loaded the shells. Our big loader here in Spokane was Ware Bros. Hardware --

1901 No. 10 Ware Bros.jpg (40.7 KiB) Viewed 6106 times

Smaller companies like Chamberlin Cartridge & Target Co. in Cleveland, Ohio, or Selby Smelting & Lead Co. in San Francisco, California, also provided loaded shells using NPEs from the big companies.

The evolution in cartridge shotguns and shotgun shells from the end of the Civil War to 1900 made your gun "obsolete" very few years after you bought it.

[Researcher]

The pages listing the various brass NPEs in the 1885-6 Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalog discusses the A and B. No mention of A or B in the 1887 catalog for whatever that is worth.

[marlinman93]

Is there any info as to dimensions of the B shells?

[Researcher]

I dug into my library and found Mike Alsop's articles on the Remington Rolling Block Shotguns are in The Remington Collector's Journal, 4th Quarter 2020 and 4th Quarter 2021. The gun was introduced with a tip-in sheet in some E. Remington & Sons 1870 Catalogs. The earliest magazine ad found for the gun is on the front page of the Army Navy Journal for November 16, 1872. That ad states the gun came with a "Draper's" Patent brass shell and extra shells were $3 per dozen. Both the tip-in and the ad state it uses 16-gauge wads. Mike's article pictures a Remington 16B brass shell and states it has the interior volume of a 16-gauge paper shell and the exterior of a 20-gauge paper shell.

By an 1886 catalog the text just states they are 32-inch barrel 20-gauge, and the 1891 Remington Arms Co. catalog lists 30- and 32-inch barrels.

[marlinman93]

We had our monthly collectors arms show here today, and I showed the shotgun to a friend who owns a couple. He asked me if I noticed the "B" stamped on the left side of the barrel, near the receiver? I looked to see what he spotted, and there was indeed a small "B" maybe 1/8" high stamped very close to the receiver.
I wonder if the B has anything to do with the B shotgun shells? Maybe designates this shotgun was designed to use those shells also?

[Inspbuild89]

I recently purchased this Remington Rolling Block 20 Gauge shotgun. The Auction listing had indicated it did not have a serial number, but I found one on the tang.

Serial Number on Inside of the right Tang is: 41904
Remington Rolling Block
20 Gauge
33" Round Barrel

Can anyone tell me what model this is and what year it was manufactured? Rolling Block #1 Sporter?

Link to auction page: https://www.rockislandauction.com/detai ... e-shotguns