Model 1897-Looking for any Historical Info

[alansarmory]

Have a Remington Model 1897, .30 Cal, Serial Number 58 that I'd like to get any historical information on. Would especially like to know who it was shipped to if it went to a government. Rifle was owned by Pancho Villa and will be in the "For Sale" section with several other items owned by Villa. Also, trying to confirm serial number location on the firearm. I contacted RemArm, which was a waste of time.

20240621_095240.jpg (4.82 MiB) Viewed 4520 times

Thanks in advance!!

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

In general, military rolling blocks were not serialized at the factory.
There is a "fitting" number stamped on the left side of the upper and
lower tang. This is NOT a serial number. These numbers were used to
make sure the two main parts of the frame would be reunited after
polishing and case hardening. These fitting numbers were used over
and over from lot to lot of rifles. The lot number would run up to
10,000 and then start over.

I believe the Mexican contract for the 1901/1902 model rifles had the
Mexican crest roll stamped on the receiver on top over the chamber and
the serial number stamped on the lower tang. Mexico did purchase rifles
before this date and were marked with a sunburst and the letters "R M"
for Republic De Mexico. I don't see these stamps on your rifle.

I'm curious (and skeptical) of your claim that this rifle once belonged to
Poncho Villa. What proof do you have to substantiate this claim?

Cheers!
Webb

[alansarmory]

Webb:

Thank you for the information on serial number, or lack thereof, on this model. Interesting, but I figured that any firearms they did for military contracts would've had serial numbers on them as militaries are always big on accountability. My guess on the lack of an Mexican military markings is the fact that Pancho Villa and his men conducted raids along the US-Mexican border and stole US arms. In the "For Sale" section of this forum, I have t pictures of his rifle and a revolver that I am selling. The revolver is inscribed to Pancho, under his real name, and was given to him by a friend who later became the President of Mexico from 1920-24. I have a picture of a friend of mine who befriended Pancho's legitimate wife. As a token of her appreciation for some work he had done to help the Mexican people, she gave my friend the 2 weapons and a small whip from the museum she had created to honor her late husband. Hope that allays your skepticism. Again, thank you for the clarification of the serial number!

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Many military Remington rolling blocks did have serial numbers
but the Factory didn't mark them. The country that received
them added the serial numbers. So Remington wouldn't have any
information on that.

Also an anecdote isn't proof and is poor evidence. There are
literally dozens (if not more) guns purported to have belonged
to Jesse James. His mother would buy old guns from local pawn
shops and then sell them to unsuspecting clods as one of Jesse's
guns. It is an old dodge and a story without corroboration is just
a story.

Anyone can have a gun engraved. This kind of fakery has been
around for a long time and lots of people have been taken in by
this. Again, this isn't proof without additional corroboration.

Cheers!
Webb

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Your revolver with the inscription "For Doroteo Aranago your friend Al Obregon
October 4, 1898 birthday 21" is very suspicious. Let's look at the facts.

José Doroteo Arango Arámbula (a.k.a.) Pancho Villa was born on 5 June 1878
and not October 4 and in 1898, Pancho Villa was only 20 years old.

Also, Álvaro Obregón Salido was born on 17 February 1880 and would be only
18 years old on that date. He didn't join the Revolution until after the February
1913 coup d'état. That was 15 years after the date on the revolver.

So, it is almost for sure a fake.

Cheers!
Webb