Trying to identify an early Rolling Block in 50-70 govt

[cookiejennings]

Hi Folks, First time post, thank you for letting me be part of the Remington Society.

I'd appreciate any thoughts on my Rolling Block, what model it might be, the vintage, where it might have been made and any other comments you might have. My Remington Rolling Block Military Rifle Collectors guide does not seem to identify it, and I'm thinking it's one of the earlier Remington Rolling Blocks, but not a conversion.

I bought it at a gun auction several years ago, it's in good condition: the rifling is quite good, and there is no pitting in the barrel. I cast the chamber and determined it's 50-70 Govt, I've had ammo made with both 450 gr and 300 gr bullets with black powder and the gun has been amazing to shoot and I've put about 75 rounds through it.

It does not have the "safety" feature on the hammer that has been identified in some Rolling blocks. When I push the block to the closed position, the hammer stays fully cocked and does not drop back to half cock. This gun is hot and ready to fire when the block is pushed to the closed position.

I've attached several photos. The barrel is round not octagon, it's 32 inches long and the top of the receiver is rounded where the barrel mates the receiver. The gun has a common stamp on the receiver, barrel and butt plate, the number 415. In addition the barrel is stamped with 1159N.

On the top of the barrel is stamped CB with a crown, and the letters ALK and P.G.A.
The left side of the receiver is stamped 415, the right side has the CB Crown and the date 1869.

There is nothing stamped on the bottom tang. At some point it was retrofitted with a vernier sight fixed to the upper tang. And the barrel appears to have been either glass beaded or sand blasted at one time.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have about this Rolling Block.

Regards

Bob

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

You have a Sweden Contract rolling block. These were originally
in caliber 12.7 X 44mm rim fire but most were later converted to
center fire. Swedish 12.7 X 44mm center fire is very, very close
to U.S. 50-70 (which was the U. S. Army rifle standard) and un-
doubtedly influenced Sweden's choice.

The maker's mark on the frame is uncommon. The "CB" under crown
indicates Carlborg manufacture. The most common are the "C"
under crown (for Carl Gustafs) and a plain "H" (for Husqvarna).
There is also a rare variant that is mark with an "S" (for Stockholm).

These were the earliest Remington rolling blocks made and most
had the "moon screws" instead of the more familiar Remington
"button."

Cheers!
Webb

[cookiejennings]

Hello Webb, thanks for the detailed response and putting me on the right track. I see now from my copy of George Layman this is indeed a Swedish built gun.

I pulled the forearm off this evening, see the photo, it's stamped 1863, with the P.G.A marking again and the letter M. Does any of that makes sense to you?

Even though the barrel is stamped 1863, the barrel, receiver and butt plate all have the same serial number 415 and the receiver is stamped 1869.

The other interesting aspect of this rolling block is the very short fore end.

Thanks again for getting back to me.

cheers

Bob

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

The "P.G.A." marking is most likely the initials of the inspector.
the 1863 date on the underside of the barrel is the year the barrel
was made and the 1869 on the frame is the year the frame was
made. Sweden attempted to convert some of their not too old
muzzle loaders into breach loaders. Personally, I'm not too familiar
with the Swedish rolling blocks but George Layman goes into some
detail on the M1860/64/68 and the M1860/68 conversions.

Cheers!
Webb

[cookiejennings]

Thanks for getting back to me Webb.

The inspector initials certainly makes sense, that's a good idea. I found an interesting article on the net, https://www.militaryrifles.com/swedish/m1867remington, that article certainly agrees with your comment. In addition the article suggested the second set of initials could be the students name if the gun was converted at the CB armory instead of fabricated at the actual factories. And we know this was done at the armory because of the CB crown. This internet article is well researched, with multiple references listed as sources and detailed photos showing the various markings of the guns.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the conversions or transformations as the two terms seemed to be interchangeable and if perhaps my gun was a transformed gun. In the article it says if the butt plate is brass and it is not a Norwegian gun then it is definitely a muzzle-loader or chamber-loader converted to the rolling block system. I'll do some more research on that.

Thanks again Webb, it's quite interesting tracking down the provenance of these old firearms.

Cheers

Bob