Dating My 1894 sxs Damascus Shotgun serial 102257?

[Ticklikker]

Does anyone know of an index of serials with perhaps factory info on this gun? Proper shot shell size? 2 1/2 2/5/8? Thanks for your help. David

[Researcher]

Remington Arms Co. Model 1894 hammerless doubles serial numbers began at 100000. A gun in the 102xxx range would have been made in 1895. The Model 1894 was made in five grades ascending from A to E. If the gun has automatic ejectors the written grade designation has an E appended -- AE-, BE-,CE-, DE- or EE-Grade. In the early years Model 1894 doubles were offered in 10- and 12-gauge and all were fitted with Damascus barrels. During 1897, Remington began offering 16-gauge guns, and began offering their very strong Ordnance Steel barrels. On the A- and B-grades the Ordnance Steel barrels cost extra, but were the same price on C-Grade and above as their fancier Damascus barrels. As with ejectors, grade designations got an O appended if a gun had the Ordnance Steel barrels -- AO-, AEO-, BO-, BEO-, CO-, CEO-, etc. Generally, 10-gauge Model 1894s had 2 7/8 inch chambers, 12-gauge had 2 5/8 inch chambers and 16-gauge had 2 9/16 inch chambers. A few guns were ordered with longer chamb ers and are usually so marked.

BE-Grade



CEO-Grade



DEO-Grade

[Ticklikker]

Thanks so much for yoru complete and detailed and FAST reply! David

[Researcher]

I was on my Wife's laptop earlier and was winging my response. Back on my desktop and here is my canned Model 1894 response --

Remington Hammerless Doubles -- Two patents were issued on the same day, October 30, 1894. No. 528,507 pertaining to the milling of the frame was granted to R. C. Fay of Ilion, New York, assignor to the Remington Arms Company of same place; and No. 528,508 pertaining to the automatic ejectors, to R.C. Fay and G.E. Humphreys of Ilion, New York, assignor to the Remington Arms Company of same place.

If the gun is absolutely plain with no engraving, just "Remington Arms Co." stamped on the side of the frame it is an A-grade if a Model 1894. Model 1894 serial numbers were in the 100,000 range and often preceded by a P a Remington stock letter. Also perfectly plain was the lower priced Model 1900 with serial numbers in the 300,000 range, and often a stock letter of Q. These were also known as the K-grade.

A Model 1894 B-grade had just a bit of borderline engraving. As the grades went up C-, D-, and E-grade the engraving became more extensive, the stock wood and checkering finer, and the overall workmanship better. There is normally a grade letter stamped on the left side watertable, or on "bridge-frame guns" (usually 103,500 and lower serial numbers) on the bridge. Also, if you remove the trigger guard, the grade letter is often stamped in the wood after the serial number.

If a Remington Model 1894 is fitted with automatic ejectors the the written grade designation has a letter E added to it and if it has Remington Steel barrels an R or Ordnance Steel Barrels an O -- AE-grade (A-grade with ejectors and the regular Damascus barrels), AER-grade (A-grade with ejectors and Remington Steel barrels), BO-grade (B-grade with Ordnance Steel barrels) or CEO-grade (C-grade with ejectors and Ordnance Steel barrels). I’ve never seen these extra letters stamped on the gun’s watertable. In the Model 1900s things are reversed. Remington must have considered their Remington Steel barrels standard and appended a D if the gun was equipped with 2-blade Damascus barrels -- KD-grade or KED-grade. "Ordnance Steel" is normally stamped on the top of the barrels on AO-/AEO- and BO-/BEO-Grade Remington doubles and engraved on higher grades.

You need to check out Charles G. Semmer's book "Remington Double Shotguns." It is available from the author 7885 Cyd Drive, Denver, CO 80221, for $60 plus $5 shipping and handling. It is invaluable if you are going to shoot, invest, collect or play in the Remington double gun field. Remington supplied a number of different pattern Damascus barrels on these old doubles. A picture of their salesman’s sample of the various styles of Damascus available is shown on page 275 of Semmer's book.

Remington Arms Co. stamped the actual pellet counts of their test patterns on the rear barrel lug of their Model 1889 hammer doubles and their Model 1894 and 1900 hammerless doubles. If the number is three digits, that is the count, if the number is two digits a leading 3 is implied. From surviving hang-tags we know the standard load they used to target 12-gauge guns was 1 1/4 ounces of #8 going 511 pellets to the load. My 12-gauge KE-Grade Model 1900 is stamped 33 on the left and 24 on the right. That would be 333/511 = 65% left and 324/511 = 64% right, or about improved modified in both barrels. The chokes measure .027" in both barrels of that gun.

[Ticklikker]

Thanks again for your reply. Your help is invaluable. It is indeed 1894, AE Damascas sxs.

The bore is EXCELLENT, no pitting at all. I think whomever owned this knew to always use excellant black powder paper cartridges and clean it with water. It is almost exatly like one my grandfather (who was born in 1895) had, and taught me about guns with. Up until some idiot neighbor borrowed it and pushed a newer hotter load into it, around 1985. I have been looking for one in decent shape I could afford, found it today. I plan on obtaining a few paper cartridges with swiss black powder in them and using it a bit, them just displaying it.

Thanks again for your help. David

[raydj]

I'm certainly not that knowledgable, but I have done a bit of reading and searching on the internet - I was under the impression that anything after about 1880 was set up to use modern, smokeless powder rather than black powder. I'm sure some more knowledgable person will correct if I'm wrong in that.

[Researcher]

Smokeless powders began appearing on the market in the 1870s (Wood) and by the time Remington Arms Co. introduced their Hammerless Double Barrel Shotgun their catalogues and advertising carried statements like "The Remington Guns, both Hammer and Hammerless, are especially adapted to all nitro powders, and every gun is thoroughly proved, tested and targetted, before leaving the armory."

However, the smokeless powders of the time Remington doubles were being made, and those progressive burning powders introduced by DuPont and used in the Olin's Western Cartridge Co.'s Super-X shells introduced in the early 1920s are two different things. In 1926 the Small Arms Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) was established and gave us the specs modern U.S. ammo is manufactured to.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

I do not shoot Twist or Damascus barrel guns. That said, my Grandfather's 1890-vintage heavy twist barrel Parker Bros, PH-Grade 12-gauge and my Father's 1895-vintage AE-Grade Remington 12-gauge both have digested carloads of Western Super-X/Federal Hi-Power/Remington Nitro Express/etc. type shells. Grandpa bought the Parker in 1901 and it lived on a farm where six boys were raised, all hunters, and it saw a lot of use. It was finally retired when my Uncle quit hunting after the 1984 season. My Father got his Remington in 1945 and it was his favorite shotgun until he quit hunting in 1988.

[raydj]

Thanks for the info - very helpful.

[Researcher]

Pretty sure there is no one left alive who knows what these codes on the bottom of the barrels mean.

X
K
E
A1 on a 1909 vintage KE-Grade 16-gauge --



///
K
E
Y on a 1906 vintage KE-Grade 12-gauge --



///
F
E
G
13 on a 1906 vintage 12-gauge FE-Grade Trap Gun --



///
M on a 1906 vintage 12-gauge CEO-Grade --



X
O on a 1905 vintage 16-gauge DEO-Grade --



P
A on a 1896 vintage 12-gauge AE-grade --



B
J
E on a 1895 vintage 12-gauge BE-Grade --



We can make guesses on some of them, but many remain a mystery.

[rem1894]

Hi I have collected the model 1894 for over 45 year's. The X stamped on bottom of barrels means small frame 16ga. All of the model 1900's in 16ga are on the small frame. And the model 1894's can be on the small frame or the regular frame. Some 12ga model 1894's and model 1900's are on the small frame but are very rare. There is no X stamped on the 12ga with small frame. Terry

[dieNusse1]

Terry - could you expand on the rarity of the 12 Ga. small frame? I have a 1900 KED with a small action body made in 1910.

Jerry

[rem1894]

From my record keeping of many many year's the remington 1894 and model 1900 12ga. guns with small frame, I would say about 1 in a 100 guns are built on the small frame. I have a D grade 12ga. on the small frame, and my best graded model 1894. Also have a 12ga. model 1900 KT grade (twist barrels, a 1910 made parts cleanup gun) on small frame. To find one with 26in. barrels is very very rare. Uncut barrels that is. Most A and B grade 1894 and model 1900 barrels with 26in barrels are cut. Terry

[dieNusse1]

Wow -- a KT. Hadn't heard of one of those. Must have used leftover '89 barrel stock.

FYI - my small frame KED 12 ga action body is slightly wider than a 16 ga. Set up with 30" barrels choked improved modified on both sides.

It's been my best gun in the field and is deadly on pheasants, rabbits, doves etc. Beats my 870 hands down. Jerry

[rem1894]

Jerry I have a KT in 16ga. to, both 16ga and 12ga. have mint bores. Yes they used 1889 barrels on them. There may be more out there. Also have 2 model 1894 AE grades with C grade barrels (etoile) on them both in 16ga. Also late parts cleanup gun's. Not late gun's but have a CEK grade (krupp barrels) in 16ga. And a model 1894 EEN (nickel steel) in 12ga. Both special order gun's. Never say never when it come's to Remington Doubles. Terry

[2shooter]

Terry I a Model 1900 12 ga. large frame with 26 inch barrels left barrel mikes .729 right .715 pellet count left 201 right 289. better yet there is set of 30 inch barrels all serial number to gun.