Yet Another Model 12 Question....

[John D.]

This is my first post and I'm not a Remington collector, so please be gentle!

I've been on the search for many years for a Model 12 to replace my grandfathers Model 12 which I learned to shoot with before I was "knee high to a grasshoppers knickers". Recently, I acquired one - but I'm at a loss for information/identification? While it certainly is a Model 12-A (serial number 88,8XX) - I'm guessing it was "dressed up" by some owner long ago? Let me explain...

It's a 24" octagon barrel and the bore is perfect! Outside - it has some small pit areas (due to some poor storage sometime in it's life?). But, it probably retains a strong 96%-98% of original blue...

OK - now for the anomalies I can't find any information on?

- The receiver is beautifully engraved - both sides have small game (squirrel and two bunnies) and engraved edges? Even by the ejection port, it is bordered and outlined? As well, the top and bottom of the receiver are engraved (scroll only - no game scenes)? I'm guessing that someone had this done sometime in it's life, as in searching this site (a great resource - THANK YOU!) and other pictures on the Internet, I haven't found a picture of a Model 12 engraved like it, so I'm guessing it was done later?

- The wood on the stock is, well - simply beautiful! I do not know if all Model 12s of that era had exceptional wood or not - but this does? Or, rather - would this have been restocked to a higher grade of wood by a previous owner?

I'll try to post some pictures below....

Also - Mr. Gyde - I've enjoyed your posts I've read in this Forum, and learned quite a bit - so I'll be ordering your book!

I won't be in the least disappointed to learn that my Model 12 is nothing "special", as I'm guessing someone during it's lifetime had all this work done on it - but it is beautiful to look at (and at less than $500 spent on it - hope she shoots as good as she looks!)

My thanks in advance for any information/thoughts you can provide,

John

[John D.]

OK - I hope these work.... There should be 7 pictures below??













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[John Gyde]

OK, a lot to think about.... First, at under $500 you won't have to worry about losing money.

Your rifle was made in 1911. The M/12-A has a round barrel, so you have a 12-C or better. Now, my guesses. Please remember there are exceptions to every Remington certainty - -

The engraving resembles an E or F grade. It appears to be very well done. I doubt that it is factory engraving though. On the highest grade rifles, Remington engraved the serial #. Yours appear to be stamped. There are some other clues that I won't mention because they give hints to the next copycat engraver. Your wood appears to be classic "D" grade wood. Does the fore-end have gooves? If so, it would be from a "D" grade or less. The checkering pattern does not appear to be factory work.

I have seen some after-factory checkering and engraving that was terrible. Yours appears to be quite well done and worthy of pride of ownership.

This is stepping out on a limb, but my guress is that you have a "D" grade rifle that has been upgraded by engraving and adding to the checkering.

John

[John D.]

Hi John!

What a terrific reply - thank you! In fact, you are correct, the fore-end is, indeed "grooved"..! However, the serial number is engraved? This Model 12 came from an estate, where the son-in-law was selling it for his wife's father's small collection of various firearms. I do not know how long they were in his possession, nor whether he was the original owner?

Is there any way to tell if the wood may be original to this fine old Model 12? Also, if you would like pictures of any areas, please feel free to ask!

John, my sincerest thanks again!

John

[John D.]

Hi John (and, again - my thanks!)

Here is a picture of the serial number area..??

[John Gyde]

Your serial Numbers look like they were engraved, or stamped then embelished. The "8"s are not the same as on my rifles of the same era (700 numbers apart). Also, the RW is not above the serial
#. I'm not sure what you have...

Take off the butt plate. On the back side there should be a serial # that will be similar (usually not exact) to the one on the rifle. That might tell you if at least that part of the rifle is original.

Looking at the dings in the metal, the rifle has almost certainly been reblued; probably when the engraving was done. One way to tell is by looking at the muzzle. It should be white on the end. Usually they are not left in the white after a re-blue job.

[John D.]

Hi John,

My thanks again.... OK - I'll try to post some more pics later tonight, certainly of the serial number "straight on" for your review. In looking at the numbers under a magnifying glass - I can't see any traces of a previous stamped number, but I will certainly defer to your eye! Please remember, this is my first Remington - so I'm NOT sure what I am looking for!!

Also - the end of the muzzle is not blued. It is white with traces of patina. I thought it was "cut" when I first saw it - but if it was, it was left in the white long ago, as there is no "blue" on it? I'll try to take a picture of that as well, as you will see what I mean (I hope?).

Finally - I'll take a picture of the buttstock - and remove it? I'm not sure what I'm looking for - but I'll tell you what I find!

John - my thanks again! As a "back-up" - I'd be more than willing to send this 12 to you for your inspection - as I have no idea what I've got. I just thought I was buying a nice Model 12 to replace my grand-dads 12 which I grew up with...??

John - my thanks again....

John

[John D.]

OK here we go.....

Hi John! first is a picture of the "8"s in the serial number?? The camera actually picks up more than I can see with the naked eye - but, it looks like they are engraved? Also - I don't see any rements of a stamp anywhere in the number(s)?? Again - your eye is better....



OK - the muzzle end... Again - it doesn't apprear to have any blue - just aged. It's a different color than the barrel blue?



And I removed the metal butt plate. I didn't see anything in the wood - but, I'm not sure where to look? Here is what the wood looks like:



However - on the metal butt plate - there is the serial number and an "S"?? It's located down by the bottom of the plate.. I didn't see anything else on it? Anyway - here is what I found (and these numbers look STAMPED, not engraved??)



Again - my sincerest THANK YOU for walking through this and sharing your expertise!

John

[shot1too]

John D.

I'm not an expert on the Model 12 but collect the Model 14. I got out my catalog from 1913-14 and looked at the 12-D "Peeless" information. Your rifle looks very close to the pictures. I have a "D" in my collection and the wood is a very close match. In looking at your engraved serial number I took note that the numbers look the same as on the engraved guns I have observed in the 14 line. The engraved 14 models I have observed do not have the Model designator "C" with the serial number (again this is the Model 14 line). Late 14s did not use the "C" designator anyway. I was wondering if the pistol grip cap had any writing on it? I also took a look and the special order sights available from Remington at the time. The King Sporting Rear Sight looks like your sight. In your picture, it looks like your sight my be a "Marbles." This might be a clue as to if the sight was put on by the factory or not. You have a very nice rifle. Your serial number indicates your reciever was made prior to the date code system; however, you should look to see if there is a date code followed by the number three/ This would indicate the rifle was returned to the factory for work after the production date. Thanks for putting the pictures on the forum. Your rifle is a great subject for RSA to review.
Loren

[John D.]

Hi Loren!

THANK YOU! Excellent information - and you are right on regarding the rear sight. In fact - it is marked (two lines): D W KING, and on the second line: DENVER COLO

Also - the grip cap is plain without any inscriptions or writing...

As for the date code or suffixes, would those be marked on the outside of the receiver? If so, I have not spotted anything? However, I know Remington would apply their "re-work" on my Parkers to the flats - so on a 12, would it be inside the receiver somewhere, as I haven't taken this 12 apart?

Loren, my sincerest appreciation to you and all the folks for your help, insight and sharing your knowledge on this! I'm still in awe of Davids E or F in the thread near this one.. (David - my thanks again for posting your Model 12 - it is terrific!!)

Best to all for a wonderful Sunday!

John

[shot1too]

John
If there is a date code, it would be on the left side of the barrel in front of the receiver. If you go to the RSA home page you will see a block that says manufacture dates. If you click on that, it will show you the date code system for Remington. The fact that the rear sight is a King, is a very good thing. While you can't say it was done at the factory, you can't say that it wasn't. The date of your rifle is early enough that My model 14 information might not apply concerning the grip cap. All the full pistol grips I have seen have had writing on them. Perhaps John G would have some insite on that subject. I would not be too quick to dismiss your rifle as being Remington. I would contiune to do more research. Getting John's book would be a good start.
Loren

[John Gyde]

Your serial number indicates 1913; way before date codes were used.

I agree with Loren on the grip cap. I haven't seen one on a high grade Remington that wasn't company stamped.

It wouldn't be a good idea to send me the rifle for inspection. An inspection of a nice rifle like that might take me years. I might even forget that it wasn't mine....

I am at the Reno show 3 times a year and in Las Vegas in January. Maybe we could hook up at one of those???

John G.

[John Gyde]

I just went back to the main screen and saw you are in PA. Long way from Nevada. I will also be at the RSA seminar in Utah in September.

John G

[John D.]

John & Loren - my thanks again!!! John - if I were to send you this firearm, I'm hoping you would allow me to have "visiting rights", and maybe view it's "cousins" it would be stored with..

OK - I'm going to take a leap of trying to figure out what this is, not so much by pure identification, but rather knowing what it's not and through "process of elimination"... Please feel free to correct me my thinking at any time!!!

It's either an upgraded C or a Model 12D Peerless - and I'm leaning towards the "D" Peerless..

If it were an upgraded "C", then the serial number would probably be stamped, which this does not appear to be..? If it were a higher grade (E or F), then the forearm would be of a different type and the stock would be a higher grade wood?

As for the engraving - the only reference I can find if a previous book of Gun Values - which states that the "D" has "light engraving". Presuming that means total coverage, and using David's fine pictures in his thread as a reference, this does have substantially less overall coverage as compared to David's (David's has engraving on the barrel/forward of the receiver, and other areas mine does not).

It's interesting that the "motifs" are similar (two rabbits left side, squirrel right), but the actual pictures within the engravings are different. As well, if I look at the size of the motifs, that could account for the differences, as there is less area for the squirrel (for example) on mine given the more complex engraving around the ejection port. Were all "D"s engraved as such? I have no idea - as I need some more references!!

As well - I'm "leaning" more towards this being factory engraved than by third party skilled artisan. The only reason I'm leaning towards "factory" is, again - in the overall motifs and that the small game appear to be nearly an "exact match" on how they were executed. Note the eyes of the bunnies, the ears and body detail, as well as the background detail. Same with the squirrels - and their overall proportions are nearly and exact match to David's engraving? While I'm not an expert on engraving - I would think that the similarities point to the same reference drawings. Again, this is purely "theory", which may never be able to be proved..

As well, if this was engraved to a previous owners specifications by a third party engraver, it is doubtful (but NOT IMPOSSIBLE!) - that they would commission a "custom engraving" to "match" the "factory engraving"..? It would be, in my view - more plausible that it left the factory in that configuration, rather than commissioned post-sale..?

The checkering of the stock is perplexing - as I can not find a pattern (in my VERY limited research, so far!) that replicates the pattern on my Model 12 above...? Whether it's factory or not, is yet to be determined (and may never be..).

The absence of a marked grip cap would also indicate a lower Model than an E or F, however, like the crescent butt plate, I think is original to this Model 12. Why? - the grip cap screw is perfectly timed and appears to have not been touched (removed). Again - this is "theory"...

Sooooo - anyway - that's my "first timers Remington owner/collector" view - subject to change on a whim, or until I have the time to chase this down some more - but at least it's a base theory to work from..

Also - John & Loren - I did, indeed order a copy of John's book Saturday (and had a wonderful conversation with John's wife while ordering it!)..

Finally, does anyone know of a source for older Remington catalogs? I would very much like to look at any pages/catalogs that have renderings of Model 12s (C through F)...

Also - does anyone know of the serial number ranges for Model 12 D Peerless - or the first and/or last numbers?

So many questions - so little time..

My sincerest thanks again to all..!!

John

[John Gyde]

To the best of my knowledge, there are very few records of any of the higer grade guns' dates of manufacture; especially pre-war.

The Remington catalogs you are looking for will not show you the engraving patterns for that year. The engravers appear to have had significant liberties with their work. I have several high grade 12s & 121s. None have engraving that look like any of the others. One has a dog on one side. Most have a combination of squirrels and rabbits on the sides. I have seen two that had a dog head on the top of the receiver. I also own two "F" grades that were not done at the factory. They have squirrels and rabbits as well.

Thanks for the book order. It will be sent out priority mail this morning. Several of my high grade 12s & 121s are pictured in the book.