Which model shotgun do I have?
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Krag2
Which model shotgun do I have?
Years ago my father won a Remington 10 guage double barrel shotgun with the exposed hammers in an auction. He wrote to the factory with the serial number and got a letter back giving him the model number and the year it was manufactured in. The main reason he wrote the letter was to inquire if the barrels were Damascus or not. The letter stated that the print pattern that we observed on the gun was like an etching and that the gun was in fact not made with Damascus barrels. Unfortunately the years went by and when my Dad passed away, I never found the factory letter. So my question is how do I determine what model it is and how old it might be? The only numbers I see on the gun is under the forearm in 2 places. On the metal there is 18785 and on the wood is 187.85. Also on the underside of the barrels beneath the forearm (on each barrel) is the number 5. E. Remington & Sons Ilion, NY is engraved on the rib between the barrels. Any help or information I could get would be helpful. Thanks.
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Jay Huber
The serial number indicates you have an 1885 Model Remington 10 Gage Hammer Gun. It was probably made in late 1885 or early 1886. The serial number has nothing to do with the barrel construction- steel or Damascus. If you show a print pattern on the barrels they are Damascus. Steel barrels are solid blue. Jay Huber RSA
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Krag2
Thanks for the reply. Two things tend to make me question that you are calling the barrels Damascus--1. The factory letter stated they were NOT Damascus, and 2. At a gun show a couple of years back I looked through an antique Remington catalog which indicated that the guns could be purchased with or without the print pattern. In all Damascus guns I've ever seen the way Damacus steel barrels were formed around a mandrel was very obvious. My Dad ruined an Ithaca hammerless double that was Damascus and had lost most of it's finish after he painted on a metalic finish and heated it in the oven--the solder let go and the barrels untwisted into a comical but sad sight. If you look down the barrel of my 10 guage it's very smooth and shiny--there is no indication of twist--inside or outside. Another thing indicates that the pattern is merely laid on because in wear areas it's gone and the steel is smooth and shiny. Several brands of shotguns are known to have done this same thing. In fact I've seen the identical pattern on a couple of different makes.
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Krag2
I've been reading a bit on the web about the different types of old barrels. It seems from what I find, damascus, twist and laminated barrels are barrels built by twisting metal around mandrels and welding/soldering the seam to form a single tube. From what I see of decarbonized barrels they are similar to fluid steel and have no seams. I found this from an 1874 catalog explaining each grade of the Witmore Model 1873:
"Our $45ºº gun is perfectly plain. All ornamentation and checking has been omitted in order to reduce the cost. We have endeavored to construct a gun that should possess the important features of a first class gun, and still be sold at a price within reach of all.
The barrels of this basic style of shotgun are made of decarbonized steel containing only enough carbon to give strength, combined with a toughness that allows it to be bent double when cold. This steel is now largely used in gun work, and is much stronger and more reliable than the cheaper kinds of twist found in many imported guns.
Indeed, many gunsmiths prefer it to any twist, and claim that it makes a better shooting barrel, owing to its being perfectly homogeneous. In the manufacture of these barrels they are rolled from the solid metal, without weld.
And this system of manufacture, combined with the toughness and strength of the material, ensures a strong barrel, without weld or seam, and capable of receiving a fine interior finish."
Now that description does not fit the description of a Damascus barrel in that I'm understanding a Damascus barrel to be made by twisting Damascus steel around a mandrel and welding the seam thus formed to create a solid tube. So I don't see how a decarbonized barrel can be considered a Damascus barrel--both the steel type and the manufacturing methods are very different.
"Our $45ºº gun is perfectly plain. All ornamentation and checking has been omitted in order to reduce the cost. We have endeavored to construct a gun that should possess the important features of a first class gun, and still be sold at a price within reach of all.
The barrels of this basic style of shotgun are made of decarbonized steel containing only enough carbon to give strength, combined with a toughness that allows it to be bent double when cold. This steel is now largely used in gun work, and is much stronger and more reliable than the cheaper kinds of twist found in many imported guns.
Indeed, many gunsmiths prefer it to any twist, and claim that it makes a better shooting barrel, owing to its being perfectly homogeneous. In the manufacture of these barrels they are rolled from the solid metal, without weld.
And this system of manufacture, combined with the toughness and strength of the material, ensures a strong barrel, without weld or seam, and capable of receiving a fine interior finish."
Now that description does not fit the description of a Damascus barrel in that I'm understanding a Damascus barrel to be made by twisting Damascus steel around a mandrel and welding the seam thus formed to create a solid tube. So I don't see how a decarbonized barrel can be considered a Damascus barrel--both the steel type and the manufacturing methods are very different.
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Krag2
Another note on Damascus barrels:
"From roughly 1880 to 1930, there were several manufacturers and importers in this country that supplied double-barreled shotguns to anyone who would order them. They not only made them under their own name, but for dozens and dozens of hardware wholesalers, hardware stores, mail- order catalogs, sporting goods stores and many other retail and wholesale gun dealers, each engraved or stamped with their individual trade name or names. Add to this various grades, and suddenly there are vast numbers of essentially the same shotgun, all with different names engraved on them. Made largely with Damascus, twist or laminated-steel barrels, virtually none are safe to shoot as they are.
Damascus or twist-steel barrels are made by layering alternate strips of steel and iron then welding them together. The strips are then twisted until they resembled a screw, three of these wound strips are then welded together, wound around a steel mandrel, then welded and hammered into a barrel tube. Laminated steel barrels are a bit different. They start with a ball of steel and iron that is then hammered into long strips and twisted, then, like their Damascus cousin, wound around a mandrel, welded and hammered into a barrel tube. Inherently, these barrels are quite strong, and many best-quality Damascus barrels pass nitro proof. However, because of the iron content and welded manufacture, twist barrels have a propensity for rusting within the barrel material. Added to that is the fact that these guns were primarily used with non-corrosive priming, and are therefore potentially honeycombed with weak spots. While there are first-quality Damascus Parker and Purdey barrels that can be shot with modern ammunition, most if not all are not up to the task."
That was written by John M. Briley, a contributing editor to American Rifleman. Tubes created by twisting layers of metal together then bending them around a mandrel cannot duplicate the very inticate pattern etched on my shotgun--I can't believe that's possible. Also I believe you'd be able to see the weld seam on the inside of the barrel. I've seen many of these twisted barrels and none of them a design that is continuous and repetitive for the length of the barrel.
"From roughly 1880 to 1930, there were several manufacturers and importers in this country that supplied double-barreled shotguns to anyone who would order them. They not only made them under their own name, but for dozens and dozens of hardware wholesalers, hardware stores, mail- order catalogs, sporting goods stores and many other retail and wholesale gun dealers, each engraved or stamped with their individual trade name or names. Add to this various grades, and suddenly there are vast numbers of essentially the same shotgun, all with different names engraved on them. Made largely with Damascus, twist or laminated-steel barrels, virtually none are safe to shoot as they are.
Damascus or twist-steel barrels are made by layering alternate strips of steel and iron then welding them together. The strips are then twisted until they resembled a screw, three of these wound strips are then welded together, wound around a steel mandrel, then welded and hammered into a barrel tube. Laminated steel barrels are a bit different. They start with a ball of steel and iron that is then hammered into long strips and twisted, then, like their Damascus cousin, wound around a mandrel, welded and hammered into a barrel tube. Inherently, these barrels are quite strong, and many best-quality Damascus barrels pass nitro proof. However, because of the iron content and welded manufacture, twist barrels have a propensity for rusting within the barrel material. Added to that is the fact that these guns were primarily used with non-corrosive priming, and are therefore potentially honeycombed with weak spots. While there are first-quality Damascus Parker and Purdey barrels that can be shot with modern ammunition, most if not all are not up to the task."
That was written by John M. Briley, a contributing editor to American Rifleman. Tubes created by twisting layers of metal together then bending them around a mandrel cannot duplicate the very inticate pattern etched on my shotgun--I can't believe that's possible. Also I believe you'd be able to see the weld seam on the inside of the barrel. I've seen many of these twisted barrels and none of them a design that is continuous and repetitive for the length of the barrel.