I recently purchased a Remington Model 14 1/2 rifle from Cabelas. It came out of a Denver store and is chambered in .38-40. I can back out of the deal and need to decide whether to keep it or not. I am a stickler for all of my old guns to be OEM, as they came out of the factory. So when Bubba gets ahold of them and starts to butcher and modify them, that is an instant deal breaker for me. I have all of the model 8's and model 14's in all 4 calibers already. And I have a model 14 1/2 in .44-40, so this would fill out my collection. I also have the 2 Model 25's as well. So this would be the last piece of the puzzle for me.
The problem is that Bubba got ahold of this one already. Someone chopped about 3/4" off of the stock and removed the steel buttplate with the Remington logo on it. And replaced it with a thick, black plastic buttplate. It is professionally installed, but it is not factory. The rear sight is a replacement also. But it looks to have had a receiver peep sight on it at one time. So it may not have had a rear sight to start with. I could live with that. The deal breaker is that, it is the rifle with the 22" barrel on it, but it has a short , or carbine length magazine tube on it. My online research doesn't find any full length rifle that left the factory with a carbine magazine tube on it ?? The barrel and the magazine tube are weathered about the same and the patina matches fairly close on both of them. Every screwhead on the entire rifle looks like it has never seen a screwdriver. The screws have never been touched. The bore is nice and shiny and looks great. And the best part is that the wood is pristine with no cracks or splits. That is unheard of, the fore-end is usually always cracked around the screwheads. And the wrist of the stock is always cracked at the receiver and working back into the wrist of the stock. Usually in several places. So this rifle is in beautiful condition except for the chop job on the stock.
My question is, is there any chance that this rifle could have come from the factory with the 22" barrel AND a short carbine magazine tube. Chambered in .38-40 ?? Or was the short magazine tube the result of Bubba modifying it at some point in it's life ?? I have a picture that I will try to attach to this message. Any input will be appreciated.
Need some advice on a Model 14 1/2 rifle
Need some advice on a Model 14 1/2 rifle
- Attachments
-
- REM 14 12.jpg (4.82 MiB) Viewed 414 times
Re: Need some advice on a Model 14 1/2 rifle
IS IT CONGRATULATIONS OR CONDOLENCES....?
You have possibly found a rarity.... it could be original, i have never seen the small 'filler" under the barrel at magazine end though. That area is where the second magazine hanger normally is slid into a dovetail. Remington would do some "off the wall stuff" to make a rifle order. The factory would mix up serial numbers by as much as a decade, use a barrel with A front sight boss from a model 14 on 141 and all kinds of antics so I would say..... it could possibly have came from Ilion, N.Y. that way.
BUT the likely history of this little sweetheart is that the magazine end was damaged, the owner took it to a Smith and there it was ring cut and fitted for the end plug screw. To keep it from hanging up on the front hanger, the hanger was removed and the Smith very thoughtfully machined the ring off and reinstalled the dovetail and peened it. Some evidence to back that up is the patina wear at the very end lightens up like it was cycled through the ring.
I added a two comparison pics below that show a short mag compared to a normal 11 shot mag. Notice the short mag has no second hanger. "The classic Remington Model 14" and 14 1/2, model 25, and 141 book by KEN BLAUCH is a wealth of knowledge on these rare little darlings....
Those 14 1/2's are hard to find, you might use this information as a bargaining tool and buy her to keep for a few hunnerd less.. just sayin'.... a modified 14 1/2 in 38 is better than no 14 1/2 at all there were so few made that in my opinion all of them are precious........
In my humble opinion that repair isn't a Bubba fix, it was just a Smith making an old gun useable again as parts for 14 1/2 dried up after being discontinued.
"Historical Details & Specifications:
Calibers: Chambered in .44 Rem. (.44-40) and .38-40 Rem.
Magazine Capacity: The rifle holds 11 cartridges, and the carbine version holds 9
Magazine Variations: A half-magazine rifle was available at no additional cost
. Some special smoothbore variations were also produced in .44 caliber.
Grades & Models: Available in Grades A, C, D, and F. The carbine version was designated as Grade R."
The above quoted information from the internet but referencing the REMINGTON SOCIETY
Ray Watson
You have possibly found a rarity.... it could be original, i have never seen the small 'filler" under the barrel at magazine end though. That area is where the second magazine hanger normally is slid into a dovetail. Remington would do some "off the wall stuff" to make a rifle order. The factory would mix up serial numbers by as much as a decade, use a barrel with A front sight boss from a model 14 on 141 and all kinds of antics so I would say..... it could possibly have came from Ilion, N.Y. that way.
BUT the likely history of this little sweetheart is that the magazine end was damaged, the owner took it to a Smith and there it was ring cut and fitted for the end plug screw. To keep it from hanging up on the front hanger, the hanger was removed and the Smith very thoughtfully machined the ring off and reinstalled the dovetail and peened it. Some evidence to back that up is the patina wear at the very end lightens up like it was cycled through the ring.
I added a two comparison pics below that show a short mag compared to a normal 11 shot mag. Notice the short mag has no second hanger. "The classic Remington Model 14" and 14 1/2, model 25, and 141 book by KEN BLAUCH is a wealth of knowledge on these rare little darlings....
Those 14 1/2's are hard to find, you might use this information as a bargaining tool and buy her to keep for a few hunnerd less.. just sayin'.... a modified 14 1/2 in 38 is better than no 14 1/2 at all there were so few made that in my opinion all of them are precious........
In my humble opinion that repair isn't a Bubba fix, it was just a Smith making an old gun useable again as parts for 14 1/2 dried up after being discontinued.
"Historical Details & Specifications:
Calibers: Chambered in .44 Rem. (.44-40) and .38-40 Rem.
Magazine Capacity: The rifle holds 11 cartridges, and the carbine version holds 9
Magazine Variations: A half-magazine rifle was available at no additional cost
. Some special smoothbore variations were also produced in .44 caliber.
Grades & Models: Available in Grades A, C, D, and F. The carbine version was designated as Grade R."
The above quoted information from the internet but referencing the REMINGTON SOCIETY
Ray Watson
- early 44-40 DCP 14.5
- 44-40 magazine full.png (1.06 MiB) Viewed 367 times
- Early 44-40 Short mag 14.5
- 44-40 magazine half.png (1.27 MiB) Viewed 367 times
Re: Need some advice on a Model 14 1/2 rifle
14-1/2 Half Magazine rifles are a rarity, many were converted to carbines at the factory because they didn't sell. Yours is NOT a factory half/mag rifle and from what all you describe it has indeed been butchered. Its little more than a "parts gun" but since parts for the 14-1/2 are extremely hard to find that might not be a bad thing, depends on how much you paid for it.
Maybe you can remove the filler in the slot where a magazine ring should be, re-install the magazine ring, and have a new rifle magazine tube from a Winchester Model 94 tube. To do the latter you need a "smith" that can thread the tube properly because the threading like most screws on the 14/14-1/2/141 are obsolete but dies can be found. I had a very talented "smith" in MN that made me magazine tubes & followers for 20+ years until he passed away.
Original replacement stocks & sights can be purchased on Gunbroker or Ebay but you have to be patient until they show up. In any event your rifle as it sits will require a lot of work.
Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC
Maybe you can remove the filler in the slot where a magazine ring should be, re-install the magazine ring, and have a new rifle magazine tube from a Winchester Model 94 tube. To do the latter you need a "smith" that can thread the tube properly because the threading like most screws on the 14/14-1/2/141 are obsolete but dies can be found. I had a very talented "smith" in MN that made me magazine tubes & followers for 20+ years until he passed away.
Original replacement stocks & sights can be purchased on Gunbroker or Ebay but you have to be patient until they show up. In any event your rifle as it sits will require a lot of work.
Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC
Jim Peterson
Re: Need some advice on a Model 14 1/2 rifle
Jim and Ray, Thank You both for your very detailed replies back to me on this. I was afraid that it was not original from the factory with the short magazine tube. It would have been great to have been all original, as it would have finished out my collection of Remington pump rifles. I will think about this for a few days, but my initial thought now is to return it. As it sounds like alot of time and work to get it completely back to factory condition. It's beyond me why somebody would go through all of the work to cut the stock off and put another buttplate on it, just to shorten it by 3/4" ?? And the magazine tube must have been damaged on the end. So to shorten it and keep the rifle in working condition, at the time, was a good choice. And the gunsmith that did it, appears to have done a good job, with what he had to work with.
Thank You both again. Your replies are appreciated. I will try to find a copy of Ken Blauch's book on this series of rifles also.
Thank You both again. Your replies are appreciated. I will try to find a copy of Ken Blauch's book on this series of rifles also.
Re: Need some advice on a Model 14 1/2 rifle
BUSSMAN69,
I enjoy helping where I can and you are welcome.
You can build the rifle back by purchasing a doner gun on gunbroker that has a bad fault like drilled for scope mounts and rob the butt stock and front magazine hanger, the 32 cal seems to be the least in demand.
Those rifles can sometimes be scored for around $400 and you will have an extra action block and other parts for your .25 and/or .30 if they are close in the year made but not necessarily in serial number.
There are a several screws that can be harvested as needed and it doesn't take up much room when the stock is removed.
I'd follow Jim's advise on a new magazine as I have no experience with having one made from a lever 30-30 but good to know.
You didn't say what you gave for it but bass pro ain't known for real deals and a really nice one in 38-40 just went with no bids on gunbroker for the asking of $1850, after you figure time and trouble that may be a cheaper option, I feel it was priced high and apparently everyone that ever wanted one did too so maybe the seller will relist that little sweetie with a couple to 3 hunnerd off to get a buyer. Id like to have had it for mine to have more company on the gun rack but I felt that's a little $high$.... or was it....? I don't set the market...
Search 38/40 in the COMPLETED LISTINGS of PUMP RIFLES if you want to see more pics. Item 1183539460 has ended.
After $85 shipping and like maybe $180 sales tax you'd be out about $2115 before you tip your FFL dealer.... you be the judge.
Ray
I enjoy helping where I can and you are welcome.
You can build the rifle back by purchasing a doner gun on gunbroker that has a bad fault like drilled for scope mounts and rob the butt stock and front magazine hanger, the 32 cal seems to be the least in demand.
Those rifles can sometimes be scored for around $400 and you will have an extra action block and other parts for your .25 and/or .30 if they are close in the year made but not necessarily in serial number.
There are a several screws that can be harvested as needed and it doesn't take up much room when the stock is removed.
I'd follow Jim's advise on a new magazine as I have no experience with having one made from a lever 30-30 but good to know.
You didn't say what you gave for it but bass pro ain't known for real deals and a really nice one in 38-40 just went with no bids on gunbroker for the asking of $1850, after you figure time and trouble that may be a cheaper option, I feel it was priced high and apparently everyone that ever wanted one did too so maybe the seller will relist that little sweetie with a couple to 3 hunnerd off to get a buyer. Id like to have had it for mine to have more company on the gun rack but I felt that's a little $high$.... or was it....? I don't set the market...
Search 38/40 in the COMPLETED LISTINGS of PUMP RIFLES if you want to see more pics. Item 1183539460 has ended.
After $85 shipping and like maybe $180 sales tax you'd be out about $2115 before you tip your FFL dealer.... you be the judge.
Ray
- Attachments
-
- rem 38-40.JPG (87.04 KiB) Viewed 318 times
Re: Need some advice on a Model 14 1/2 rifle
Just to be totally clear!
The bolt for the 14-1/2 is different with a unique ejector rod that has a broad face.
All bolts for the 14-1/2 are marked "44" on the top, many of the early rifles had the serial stamped on the top of the bolt, something not seen on the other calibers.
The cartridge stop is significantly different than those used for the other calibers.
The follower is way the hell different than the other calibers.
Most significantly the loading door is different and cannot be used with other calibers.
Although they marked the carrier "44" I don't see any real difference between those used for other calibers in fact while doing repairs have replaced beat up "44's" with others but found those marked "35" worked best.
I doubt you will find a 38-40 or 44-40 parts gun for $400 because if I see a 14-1/2 parts rifle I'll bid like hell on it. In 50+ years of collecting & repairing these rifles, cut down or modified stocks are common, receivers/barrels drilled for scopes is common although Remington issued a letter to dealers in 1935 stating that the barrel of Model 14's should "never" be drilled for a scope mount but folks continue to do it.
My advice is to pay the price and buy a decent fully functional 14-1/2, keeping in mind the 14-1/2 is even more fussy about OACL than the rifles but you can use RNFP bullets in them. I love it when a seller states "this firearm should be inspected by a competent gunsmsith", just try to find a gunsmith that has actually seen one of these rifles!!! This same advice pertains even more so to the Model 25 because they didn't make many, parts are impossible to find, and few if any know how to repair them.
Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC
The bolt for the 14-1/2 is different with a unique ejector rod that has a broad face.
All bolts for the 14-1/2 are marked "44" on the top, many of the early rifles had the serial stamped on the top of the bolt, something not seen on the other calibers.
The cartridge stop is significantly different than those used for the other calibers.
The follower is way the hell different than the other calibers.
Most significantly the loading door is different and cannot be used with other calibers.
Although they marked the carrier "44" I don't see any real difference between those used for other calibers in fact while doing repairs have replaced beat up "44's" with others but found those marked "35" worked best.
I doubt you will find a 38-40 or 44-40 parts gun for $400 because if I see a 14-1/2 parts rifle I'll bid like hell on it. In 50+ years of collecting & repairing these rifles, cut down or modified stocks are common, receivers/barrels drilled for scopes is common although Remington issued a letter to dealers in 1935 stating that the barrel of Model 14's should "never" be drilled for a scope mount but folks continue to do it.
My advice is to pay the price and buy a decent fully functional 14-1/2, keeping in mind the 14-1/2 is even more fussy about OACL than the rifles but you can use RNFP bullets in them. I love it when a seller states "this firearm should be inspected by a competent gunsmsith", just try to find a gunsmith that has actually seen one of these rifles!!! This same advice pertains even more so to the Model 25 because they didn't make many, parts are impossible to find, and few if any know how to repair them.
Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC
Jim Peterson
Re: Need some advice on a Model 14 1/2 rifle
Jim and Ray,
Thank You once again for your comments, insight and opinions on this rifle. I bought this with a 15% discount through Cabelas, a 10% off promotion and added my 5% Military discount to it. So I bought it for $1260 plus sales tax, so I've got about $1355 in it total. Not a bad price for one that is fully functional and unaltered. But that is not the case with this one. So I didn't steel it by any means, with it just being a parts rifle. I have given it alot of thought the last couple of days, and I am going to turn it down and get a full refund.
I have seen this same rifle, with a cracked fore-end and multiple deep cracks in the wrist of the stock. With almost no bluing left on it, and it basically being "In The White". Sell for $1600 or more. And these rifles basically look like they have been laying in a road ditch for 50 years. So I may never get a Model 14 1/2 in .38-40, in factory condition, to fill out my collection. I have a price limit on what I am willing to spend on any given gun. I am collecting on a budget, unfortunately.
So I think I am gonna close the book on this one. I got all excited for nothing, once I got my hands on it, my heart just sank. So Thank You both again for your valuable insight on this amazing little rifle that Remington put out. By the way, I have a good buddy who is a gunsmith. And when I asked him about working on this rifle. His response was "A Remington what ???"
Thank You once again for your comments, insight and opinions on this rifle. I bought this with a 15% discount through Cabelas, a 10% off promotion and added my 5% Military discount to it. So I bought it for $1260 plus sales tax, so I've got about $1355 in it total. Not a bad price for one that is fully functional and unaltered. But that is not the case with this one. So I didn't steel it by any means, with it just being a parts rifle. I have given it alot of thought the last couple of days, and I am going to turn it down and get a full refund.
I have seen this same rifle, with a cracked fore-end and multiple deep cracks in the wrist of the stock. With almost no bluing left on it, and it basically being "In The White". Sell for $1600 or more. And these rifles basically look like they have been laying in a road ditch for 50 years. So I may never get a Model 14 1/2 in .38-40, in factory condition, to fill out my collection. I have a price limit on what I am willing to spend on any given gun. I am collecting on a budget, unfortunately.
So I think I am gonna close the book on this one. I got all excited for nothing, once I got my hands on it, my heart just sank. So Thank You both again for your valuable insight on this amazing little rifle that Remington put out. By the way, I have a good buddy who is a gunsmith. And when I asked him about working on this rifle. His response was "A Remington what ???"