Remington 1858 information.

[Txodm]

I'm looking for information on a Remington 1858 produced in October of 1864. I just bought it at a pawnshop for $400. Initially i and others I have shown the pictures to thought it had its collector value ruiened by strange stamps. So far I believe I have found that is actually Republic of Mexico proof Mark. the gun was likely part of the aid sent to Mexico from America in 1865 to help with the war against France and napoleons army.

The information I'm trying to find out is where the gun originated from (direct purchases from Remington, from the union stockpile, or the Confederate stockpile) and how many were sent to Mexico, what units recived them and how rare a 1858 with the stamp is. Any help would be appreciated!

[aardq]

Hi Txodm,

It may be a Mexican mark, but it's not the usual mark. R d M. I can't tell what the circular mark is. The other Mexican mark on guns, is a liberty cap, but I don't see one in your pic. Sent the marks off to a fellow collector more familiar with Mexican marks. Will post his reply.

Interesting marks to be sure.
Daniel

[aardq]

Hi Txodm,
Here is the reply from the expert on Mexican Remmies. It sounds like you have a real mystery gun.
Daniel

[i]"You say those numbers are on a Percussion New Model Army? I don’t know what the marks mean, but I don’t believe they’re Mexican."
"To my knowledge, there are no documented foreign New Model Army’s. I suppose there may have been some that were sold after the war by surplus dealers like Bannerman’s, but I’ve never seen anything to support that thought."
"I’d be cautious and skeptical."[/i]

[billt]

In Don Ware’s article “Variations in Remington Model 1875 Model 1888 and Model 1890 Revolvers” in the First Quarter 2001 Remington Journal photo #7 insert shows the Mexican Liberty Cap with an “R” and “M” under it just like the one stamped on the frame of your new Model Army shown in your second picture. There is no doubt in my mind that your revolver once belonged to the Mexican Government. Now for the bad news. There is no mention of any New Model Armies being purchased from Remington by the Mexican Government in Don Ware’s book, “Remington Army and Navy revolvers 1861 - 1888. That does not mean it did not happen. As Daniel said the Mexican Government could have purchased them from one of the many arms dealers that purchased surplus arms from the Ordnance Department after the war. It certainly did not come from the Confederate Stockpile because there was no Confederate stockpile. The New Model Armies used by the Confederacy were either privately purchased or battlefield pickups.
As far a rarity is concerned in over twenty five years of looking at New Model Armies yours is the first one I have seen with Mexican markings. I have no doubt the marks are real for a couple of reasons. The Liberty Cap on your revolver is the same as the ones stamped on the barrels (below) of Remington 1875 revolvers one thousand of which were purchased by the Mexican Government in the late 1870’s.
The marks on your gun look like they have been there forever and if someone wanted to fake a revolver for monetary gain why would they spend the money to make a stamp and use it on one gun? And why would they not choose a mint specimen to enhance the value rather than a revolver without finish and pitted?
I think you have a rare revolver and hope you enjoy it.

Bill

[Txodm]

Well that lines up with what I have found. No one I've shown who knew what the mark was gas ever seen on a u.s. revolver. Only reference I found was a history article about the Mexican war with napoleon, where the article stated that in a sign of good faith between the union and Confederacy after the end of the war they sent roughly 3000 men and a shipment of guns (mostly rifles and some unspecified handguns) to Mexico to aid the war. Besides that I cant find any information as to any other likely way a union revolver with a union inspection mark on the grip ended up in the ownership of the Mexican government. As you said I see no evidence or reason as to the market being faked. I'd love to get a real experienced expert to look it over. Most negative factors I see to the value is the finish and the frame and barrel not having matching numbers but still being within 20,000 within production. I understand that this isn't unusual to have miss matching numbers but the barrel is a earler production than the frame which seems odd. However I dont know if this means the gun was assembled in Mexico from spare parts then stamped or in the u.s. than stamped in Mexico.

In Don Ware’s article “Variations in Remington Model 1875 Model 1888 and Model 1890 Revolvers” in the First Quarter 2001 Remington Journal photo #7 insert shows the Mexican Liberty Cap with an “R” and “M” under it just like the one stamped on the frame of your new Model Army shown in your second picture. There is no doubt in my mind that your revolver once belonged to the Mexican Government. Now for the bad news. There is no mention of any New Model Armies being purchased from Remington by the Mexican Government in Don Ware’s book, “Remington Army and Navy revolvers 1861 - 1888. That does not mean it did not happen. As Daniel said the Mexican Government could have purchased them from one of the many arms dealers that purchased surplus arms from the Ordnance Department after the war. It certainly did not come from the Confederate Stockpile because there was no Confederate stockpile. The New Model Armies used by the Confederacy were either privately purchased or battlefield pickups.
As far a rarity is concerned in over twenty five years of looking at New Model Armies yours is the first one I have seen with Mexican markings. I have no doubt the marks are real for a couple of reasons. The Liberty Cap on your revolver is the same as the ones stamped on the barrels (below) of Remington 1875 revolvers one thousand of which were purchased by the Mexican Government in the late 1870’s.
The marks on your gun look like they have been there forever and if someone wanted to fake a revolver for monetary gain why would they spend the money to make a stamp and use it on one gun? And why would they not choose a mint specimen to enhance the value rather than a revolver without finish and pitted?
I think you have a rare revolver and hope you enjoy it.

Bill

[billt]

I contacted an associate who has a database of serial numbers of percussion revolvers of all makes and models. He has six other Remington New Model Armies with Mexican markings so yours is not the only one. As far as the mixed numbers go there is not the stigma attached to Remington revolvers having mixed numbers like there is with Colt revolvers. I have a list of sixty plus Remington New Model Army Revolvers with mixed numbers and with most of them the barrel is a lower number than the frame. This is because of Remington’s’ policy of not letting anything go to waste. If a completed revolver failed inspection because of a defective frame they would put it aside and later would disassemble it, stamp a large “C” (for condemned) on the frame and use it if possible on revolvers which were not destined for the Ordnance Department. The parts removed from the defective frame including the barrels were used on later manufactured revolvers. That is why the barrel serial number is usually a lower number than the frame. Your revolver was most likely manufactured by Remington and shipped to the Ordnance Department. Remington did not care about mismatched serial numbers and neither did the Ordnance Department. The only people who worry about mixed numbers seem to be collectors. If you would tell me the serial number on the frame of your revolver I will add it to my list and pass it on to my associate so he can add it to his database.

Thanks,
Bill

[Txodm]

I'm currently out of town away from it but when I get back to it I'll get the the frame number.

I contacted an associate who has a database of serial numbers of percussion revolvers of all makes and models. He has six other Remington New Model Armies with Mexican markings so yours is not the only one. As far as the mixed numbers go there is not the stigma attached to Remington revolvers having mixed numbers like there is with Colt revolvers. I have a list of sixty plus Remington New Model Army Revolvers with mixed numbers and with most of them the barrel is a lower number than the frame. This is because of Remington’s’ policy of not letting anything go to waste. If a completed revolver failed inspection because of a defective frame they would put it aside and later would disassemble it, stamp a large “C” (for condemned) on the frame and use it if possible on revolvers which were not destined for the Ordnance Department. The parts removed from the defective frame including the barrels were used on later manufactured revolvers. That is why the barrel serial number is usually a lower number than the frame. Your revolver was most likely manufactured by Remington and shipped to the Ordnance Department. Remington did not care about mismatched serial numbers and neither did the Ordnance Department. The only people who worry about mixed numbers seem to be collectors. If you would tell me the serial number on the frame of your revolver I will add it to my list and pass it on to my associate so he can add it to his database.

Thanks,
Bill

[victorio1sw]

I saw your video last night. That serial number as found under the barrel was also applied to the frame, trigger guard, back of cylinder, and also on both grips (in pencil).

The "RM" stamps look similar to those seen on Remington and Colt cartridge guns that were later sold to Mexico 1870's and 1880's. Most likely that same "RM" stamp was also applied to the cylinder, if stamping procedures remained the same as done later.