Hello Mr. Puleo. I have one of those Swedish actioned rollers put together in Germany for Mexico. You recently posted concerning some information concerning these guns:
http://www.remingtonsociety.com/forums/ ... =4&t=20687
As you can see, I posted also concerning my gun. You mentioned it was a long and complicated story and that George received a copy of a program report after the "All New Collecctors Guide..." went to press (I have a copy of it and find it invaluable ). I was wondering what I might do to find out a little more about the long and complicated story and perhaps get access to the information in the report?
Thanks so very much.
Question for JV Puleo
Re: Question for JV Puleo
Hello,
Perhaps I can give my colleague Joe Puleo a hand here. Regarding the Swedish 7mm rolling block question here are some further particulars to that somewhat complicated story. The copy of the manual I received was the 1938 issue of Mexico’s once informative in house military publication titled, “Ordenanza Militar.” The issue of that year, gave a good description of the 1900-1904 small arms improvement program and a detailed backround regarding the overhaul and re-barreling of older Remington blackpowder actions to use the 7mm Mauser cartridge. Basically, as partially described in the July to December 1901 issue of the British Journal of the Royal United Service Institution, Mexico (likely in early 1901) did procure 15,000 Remington 7mm caliber 1897 (slot extractor type) barrels, to include Model 1897 forearms, upper handguards, and rear sights, for the restoration of older weapons in the hands of the troops. It is noted in the 1938 Mexican publication that following the commencement of these conversions, the program was abruptly halted in 1902 because of an imperfection in cartridge extraction of the rimless 7mm. It is briefly noted in this manual that Remington assisted the Diaz government in remedying this by working over a breech block made at the Mexican FNDA national armory. It appears that Remington museum Brass Tag number 55 listed in the inventory as “Remington B.L. 7mm with Mexican Made Block and Extractor” was this very sample having the Mexican manufactured block, but it was unfortunately sold off in Remington’s 1948 museum de-accession and its current whereabouts unknown. The so called Mexican made breech block and extractor were designed concurrently to utilize the new June 30, 1903 patented George Humphreys extraction system which incorporated the horizontal extractor and a rotating drum that fit into a mortise on the lower left side of the uniquely modified M1897 breech block. I once owned this factory prototype Model 1897 Remington with the experimental Humphrey extraction system, recorded as Remington museum Brass Tag #53 and was the only variant of its type in the November 1920 Melbourne Chambers inventory. Naturally it was sold off in 1948 as well, but I obtained it in 2010 and still have access to it at its current location. Mexico appears to have been the only user of Remington smokeless powder rolling block rifles to have used the somewhat complicated Humphreys extraction system. This three piece affair is far more fragile than the standard, and sturdier Albert Day designed automatic rotary extractor patented in Oct 22, 1901 which has proven far more practical.
Regarding the Swedish/German connection to this, the Mexican ordnance manual states; “ in late 1903…the sudden shortages of older, serviceable, black powder era Remington systems (actions) in Mexico’s inventory to be converted with the many thousand new 7mm barrels, had left the Diaz government with a dilemma…….” It was finally agreed that; “… existing furnishings from Mexico City (meaning 7mm barrels forearms, etc.) would be shipped to the German arms manufacturer Ludwig and Lowe, who will complete/convert no more than 1,445 Remington 7mm rifles with these Remington breech systems (actions) that are to be purchased by L&L’s sources in Europe as an extra supplement to a 29,000 piece, Mauser rifle purchase…………” So what appears to have happened here, is that L&L obviously included a Remington rolling block rebuild or sub-contract, and ironically obtained these Remington actions from Sweden (which appear to be the later 1867/89 converted blackpowder actions). But just who applied the crude obliterations of serial numbers and other markings is still unknown. It would be unrealistic that the highly skilled Swedish, would perform such a rudimentary job unless it was purposely intended to hide them as the nation of origin of these actions. In any case, at times, one may or may not see the Crown C (as on yours) for Carl Gustaf (or other Swedish markings) depending on how thorough they were “scrubbed.” Again, some are sloppily welded over or gouged, with others having a lesser degree of roughness. The obliteration appears inconsistent on several I have observed thus far. Obviously Ludwig and Lowe applied the German proof marks beneath the barrels as shown in your photos which is common place on most viewed of its ilk thus far. As far as the genuine Mexican assembled version is concerned, I owned two of the Mexican FNDA arsenal converted 7mm Remington “hybrids;” one a Remington that is complete with the Humphreys extraction system as well as having local Mexican FNDA serial numbers stamped on the upper frame, breech block, hammer, and trigger guard. Cosmetically, it is basically a .43 Spanish Remington rolling block from the receiver back, and a Model 1897 7mm from the barrel forward! The modified breechblock with the Humphreys extractor does have a bushed firing pin channel. The other example I obtained was a late .43 Spanish Type 2 Whitney that was identical to the aforementioned, aside from missing the breech block. It too had the appearance of a Model 1897 Remington from the front up. The serial number on the Remington was in the 11,000s, indicating the conversion these hybrids of black and smokeless powder components was indeed a reality and that Mexican presdent Porfirio Diaz knew exactly what he was doing. A final part of the L&L German conversion story did find many of these Swedish/German/ Mexican hybrid style 7mm caliber rolling block rifles having evidence of use in the 1932-35 Gran Chaco war between Paraguay and Bolivia. Several were imported from this region in the mid 1950s, and the late rolling block parts dealer Bill Wescombe purchased 235 such rifles in varied states of completion in 1957 from either Winfield or Golden State Arms Company. Whether Mexico sold some of these to Paraguay before the Chaco War (from whom they were captured from by Bolivia in 1935) or were bought elsewhere is simply not known. In any case it is hoped more will come to light on this in due time. Take care.
George Layman
Perhaps I can give my colleague Joe Puleo a hand here. Regarding the Swedish 7mm rolling block question here are some further particulars to that somewhat complicated story. The copy of the manual I received was the 1938 issue of Mexico’s once informative in house military publication titled, “Ordenanza Militar.” The issue of that year, gave a good description of the 1900-1904 small arms improvement program and a detailed backround regarding the overhaul and re-barreling of older Remington blackpowder actions to use the 7mm Mauser cartridge. Basically, as partially described in the July to December 1901 issue of the British Journal of the Royal United Service Institution, Mexico (likely in early 1901) did procure 15,000 Remington 7mm caliber 1897 (slot extractor type) barrels, to include Model 1897 forearms, upper handguards, and rear sights, for the restoration of older weapons in the hands of the troops. It is noted in the 1938 Mexican publication that following the commencement of these conversions, the program was abruptly halted in 1902 because of an imperfection in cartridge extraction of the rimless 7mm. It is briefly noted in this manual that Remington assisted the Diaz government in remedying this by working over a breech block made at the Mexican FNDA national armory. It appears that Remington museum Brass Tag number 55 listed in the inventory as “Remington B.L. 7mm with Mexican Made Block and Extractor” was this very sample having the Mexican manufactured block, but it was unfortunately sold off in Remington’s 1948 museum de-accession and its current whereabouts unknown. The so called Mexican made breech block and extractor were designed concurrently to utilize the new June 30, 1903 patented George Humphreys extraction system which incorporated the horizontal extractor and a rotating drum that fit into a mortise on the lower left side of the uniquely modified M1897 breech block. I once owned this factory prototype Model 1897 Remington with the experimental Humphrey extraction system, recorded as Remington museum Brass Tag #53 and was the only variant of its type in the November 1920 Melbourne Chambers inventory. Naturally it was sold off in 1948 as well, but I obtained it in 2010 and still have access to it at its current location. Mexico appears to have been the only user of Remington smokeless powder rolling block rifles to have used the somewhat complicated Humphreys extraction system. This three piece affair is far more fragile than the standard, and sturdier Albert Day designed automatic rotary extractor patented in Oct 22, 1901 which has proven far more practical.
Regarding the Swedish/German connection to this, the Mexican ordnance manual states; “ in late 1903…the sudden shortages of older, serviceable, black powder era Remington systems (actions) in Mexico’s inventory to be converted with the many thousand new 7mm barrels, had left the Diaz government with a dilemma…….” It was finally agreed that; “… existing furnishings from Mexico City (meaning 7mm barrels forearms, etc.) would be shipped to the German arms manufacturer Ludwig and Lowe, who will complete/convert no more than 1,445 Remington 7mm rifles with these Remington breech systems (actions) that are to be purchased by L&L’s sources in Europe as an extra supplement to a 29,000 piece, Mauser rifle purchase…………” So what appears to have happened here, is that L&L obviously included a Remington rolling block rebuild or sub-contract, and ironically obtained these Remington actions from Sweden (which appear to be the later 1867/89 converted blackpowder actions). But just who applied the crude obliterations of serial numbers and other markings is still unknown. It would be unrealistic that the highly skilled Swedish, would perform such a rudimentary job unless it was purposely intended to hide them as the nation of origin of these actions. In any case, at times, one may or may not see the Crown C (as on yours) for Carl Gustaf (or other Swedish markings) depending on how thorough they were “scrubbed.” Again, some are sloppily welded over or gouged, with others having a lesser degree of roughness. The obliteration appears inconsistent on several I have observed thus far. Obviously Ludwig and Lowe applied the German proof marks beneath the barrels as shown in your photos which is common place on most viewed of its ilk thus far. As far as the genuine Mexican assembled version is concerned, I owned two of the Mexican FNDA arsenal converted 7mm Remington “hybrids;” one a Remington that is complete with the Humphreys extraction system as well as having local Mexican FNDA serial numbers stamped on the upper frame, breech block, hammer, and trigger guard. Cosmetically, it is basically a .43 Spanish Remington rolling block from the receiver back, and a Model 1897 7mm from the barrel forward! The modified breechblock with the Humphreys extractor does have a bushed firing pin channel. The other example I obtained was a late .43 Spanish Type 2 Whitney that was identical to the aforementioned, aside from missing the breech block. It too had the appearance of a Model 1897 Remington from the front up. The serial number on the Remington was in the 11,000s, indicating the conversion these hybrids of black and smokeless powder components was indeed a reality and that Mexican presdent Porfirio Diaz knew exactly what he was doing. A final part of the L&L German conversion story did find many of these Swedish/German/ Mexican hybrid style 7mm caliber rolling block rifles having evidence of use in the 1932-35 Gran Chaco war between Paraguay and Bolivia. Several were imported from this region in the mid 1950s, and the late rolling block parts dealer Bill Wescombe purchased 235 such rifles in varied states of completion in 1957 from either Winfield or Golden State Arms Company. Whether Mexico sold some of these to Paraguay before the Chaco War (from whom they were captured from by Bolivia in 1935) or were bought elsewhere is simply not known. In any case it is hoped more will come to light on this in due time. Take care.
George Layman
Re: Question for JV Puleo
George thank you so very much. This is exactly the information I was curious about, most interesting. If for any reason you would have a use for photo's of my rifle I would be happy to give them to you to return the favor. Thanks again!
Re: Question for JV Puleo
Your quite welcome, and I am happy this info helped. Actually I wanted to post photos of these rifles mentioned for you as well, but am having difficulty attaching them to the forum reply message page. I may try again to get them posted. But yes if you have the time, I would love to see a few photos of your own 7mm Swedish RB rifle. If you wish to contact me, you can reach me at bendestet@yahoo.com Take care!
George Layman
George Layman
Re: Question for JV Puleo
Photo's on the way. You should be able to enlarge them quite a bit with the correct software.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
Re: Question for JV Puleo
Thanks George... I couldn't have answered that!
jp
jp
Re: Question for JV Puleo
Tom...One further note I neglected to mention. Those Swedish actions rebuilt with the 7mm barrels in Germany are most often if not always found with a rotary extractor having the Swedish 67/89 extractor interrupter screw beneath the forward breech block pin. L&L appears to have gone this step further by modifying the older 1897 "slot extractor" barrels to accommodate this which of course is far more efficient than the Humphreys extraction system. Another words it would have been ridiculously difficult to do otherwise. Thus with the very advanced Swedish 67/89 "smokeless" action already set up for the rotary extractor, there was no reason to take a step backward. All in all this simply translates to is A) the Mexican domestic converted Remington variants using the Humphreys system and B) the German conversions using the Swedish rotary extractor system.
George
George