Philippe,
The top rifle has the characteristics of the Egyptian Model, thousands of which were shipped to France in 1870-71. It is correctly in "bright" finish--only a very few of the first ones sent have blued barrels and parts. The bottom rifle has the characteristics of the Spanish Model in .43 caliber. It is not a Greek Model because it lacks the unique saber bayonet bar/stud. We do not know what the large "G" mark on the buttstock means. The inspector's mark on the Egyptian Model is common for that type--I have one just like it.
Greek Models ?
Re: Greek Models ?
Hello again,
In this instance George's book is incorrect. While the .42 Russian cartridges were used extensively as a replacement for the .43 Spanish by the French ordnance department (the .42 conveniently fits the Spanish Model chamber) that is not the Greek Model caliber. Originally the Greek Model was chambered in .43 Greek. But when Remington diverted the Greek rifles to France it was easy to ream out the chambers to the longer .43 Egyptian. I hope to tell this story in more detail in a future RSA journal article. Your rifle with the "G" mark appears to be a Spanish Model, which shows that this mark does not mean Greek Model. Ed
In this instance George's book is incorrect. While the .42 Russian cartridges were used extensively as a replacement for the .43 Spanish by the French ordnance department (the .42 conveniently fits the Spanish Model chamber) that is not the Greek Model caliber. Originally the Greek Model was chambered in .43 Greek. But when Remington diverted the Greek rifles to France it was easy to ream out the chambers to the longer .43 Egyptian. I hope to tell this story in more detail in a future RSA journal article. Your rifle with the "G" mark appears to be a Spanish Model, which shows that this mark does not mean Greek Model. Ed
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tanpatsu
Re: Greek Models ?
Hello Philippe,
Regarding the .43 Greek cartridge, I have a copy of an 1878-1880 UMC broadsheet, which displays this cartridge alongside both the .42 Berdan and .43 Spanish, as well as the .43 Egyptian cartridges. In reality, the .43 Greek is a secondary nomenclature of the 1874 French 11mm Gras cartridge. This came about simply because the Greek designed, single-shot Mylonas rifle was chambered for the French Gras cartridge, and for reasons unknown, the cartridge was soon coined the .43 Greek. The Mylonas somewhat copies a rolling block style action, thus the UMC broadsheet also mentions that the .43 Greek is intended for the "Grecian Remington" rifles. Interestingly, not long after the Mylonas rifle was dropped, Greece also adopted the French Gras rifle as well. It would be impossible that that the original 1869/70 Greek Remington rifle used in the Franco Prussian War, could have been chambered for the so called .43 Greek cartridge as this round was introduced long after (four years) following the F/P war to include having been developed in France. In my book on pages 83-84, is a Greek model Remington that was removed from the French Engineer and Artillery Museum School Museum by the occupying Germans in 1940 and was brought back from a Nazi depository in Augsburg, Germany to the United States in 1945 by a US Army ordnance officer. This particular rifle would accept only the .42 Berdan cartridge following close examination during our photo session at the publishers studio. At least eight out of some 20 or more identically marked Greek models I have previously owned such as yours with the crowns, and the Circle G cartouche, accepted only the .42 Berdan and not the .43 Spanish. Being that your rifle remained in Europe since the war of 1870 ( I am assuming it remained in Europe), .....please try to at least obtain a .43 Spanish cartridge and fit it to your rifle. It is my feeling that it will protrude close to 1/8 of an inch...Simply because only those Greek contract rifles viewed thus far which returned to the US had their chambers "throated" or rather "bushed" in this country to .43 Spanish for resale to the Latin American
market. In essence, those which never were re-exported to the United States, such as yours, should indeed have remained in the original .43 Berdan chambering. Hoping this may be of assistance.
Best Regards,
George Layman
Regarding the .43 Greek cartridge, I have a copy of an 1878-1880 UMC broadsheet, which displays this cartridge alongside both the .42 Berdan and .43 Spanish, as well as the .43 Egyptian cartridges. In reality, the .43 Greek is a secondary nomenclature of the 1874 French 11mm Gras cartridge. This came about simply because the Greek designed, single-shot Mylonas rifle was chambered for the French Gras cartridge, and for reasons unknown, the cartridge was soon coined the .43 Greek. The Mylonas somewhat copies a rolling block style action, thus the UMC broadsheet also mentions that the .43 Greek is intended for the "Grecian Remington" rifles. Interestingly, not long after the Mylonas rifle was dropped, Greece also adopted the French Gras rifle as well. It would be impossible that that the original 1869/70 Greek Remington rifle used in the Franco Prussian War, could have been chambered for the so called .43 Greek cartridge as this round was introduced long after (four years) following the F/P war to include having been developed in France. In my book on pages 83-84, is a Greek model Remington that was removed from the French Engineer and Artillery Museum School Museum by the occupying Germans in 1940 and was brought back from a Nazi depository in Augsburg, Germany to the United States in 1945 by a US Army ordnance officer. This particular rifle would accept only the .42 Berdan cartridge following close examination during our photo session at the publishers studio. At least eight out of some 20 or more identically marked Greek models I have previously owned such as yours with the crowns, and the Circle G cartouche, accepted only the .42 Berdan and not the .43 Spanish. Being that your rifle remained in Europe since the war of 1870 ( I am assuming it remained in Europe), .....please try to at least obtain a .43 Spanish cartridge and fit it to your rifle. It is my feeling that it will protrude close to 1/8 of an inch...Simply because only those Greek contract rifles viewed thus far which returned to the US had their chambers "throated" or rather "bushed" in this country to .43 Spanish for resale to the Latin American
market. In essence, those which never were re-exported to the United States, such as yours, should indeed have remained in the original .43 Berdan chambering. Hoping this may be of assistance.
Best Regards,
George Layman
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tanpatsu
Re: Greek Models ?
Philippe,
One last item I neglected to mention. The possibility also exists that your Greek marked Remington may be in .43 Egyptian...Looking a bit closer at the open breech, the chamber appears to be much larger than the normal .579 diameter base of either the .42 Berdan / .43 Spanish cartridges. Additionally, the J.O.B cartouche on the left butt is often, if not most often, found on Greek models that were rechambered to the very popular .43 Egyptian cartridge which accounts for the majority of the rolling block calibers received by France in the War of 1870-71. Look closely for an "E" beneath the forearm on the middle band, or elsewhere on the stock. This appears to indicate such rifles were converted from .42 Berdan to .43 Egyptian, giving a hint so to speak to French logistics personnel. I have one of the Greek marked variations in the .43 Egyptian chambering and is in identical "bright finish" and condition. Do not however neglect to inspect the caliber of the other G marked rifle (without the bayonet lug), and do try to obtain a .43 Spanish cartridge for an evaluation on both rifles.
George Layman
One last item I neglected to mention. The possibility also exists that your Greek marked Remington may be in .43 Egyptian...Looking a bit closer at the open breech, the chamber appears to be much larger than the normal .579 diameter base of either the .42 Berdan / .43 Spanish cartridges. Additionally, the J.O.B cartouche on the left butt is often, if not most often, found on Greek models that were rechambered to the very popular .43 Egyptian cartridge which accounts for the majority of the rolling block calibers received by France in the War of 1870-71. Look closely for an "E" beneath the forearm on the middle band, or elsewhere on the stock. This appears to indicate such rifles were converted from .42 Berdan to .43 Egyptian, giving a hint so to speak to French logistics personnel. I have one of the Greek marked variations in the .43 Egyptian chambering and is in identical "bright finish" and condition. Do not however neglect to inspect the caliber of the other G marked rifle (without the bayonet lug), and do try to obtain a .43 Spanish cartridge for an evaluation on both rifles.
George Layman
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tanpatsu
Re: Greek Models ?
Hello Philippe and thank you for your reply!
I am happy to hear that you confirmed my suspicions that the your Greek crown marked variant was indeed verified as a re-chamber to the Egyptian cartridge. I am afraid it would be difficult to date a particular rifle as to a shipment. However my own take on this is that once word had gotten to US exporters that the both the .43 Spanish and .42 Russian Berdan cartridge had obviously become a dilemma regarding ammunition interchangeability, thus the wisest course of action would be to simply take the remaining .42 caliber Remington Greek rifles and re-ream the chambers to the larger .43 Egyptian cartridge which was by then, firmly established as perhaps the primary French cartridge as far as Remington rolling block rifles were concerned. My feeling on this though is that such an undertaking must have been accomplished not long before the cessation of hostilities with Germany in May of 1871, simply because a fair number Greek model Remington rolling block rifles in .43 Egyptian caliber have been circulated in the USA for several years, most of which have been in very good, if not near excellent condition. This also could be evidence that a number of the 9,202 rifles in the original .42 Berdan caliber never made it to France, and were part of the once advertised "French Models" shown but once in the 1876 Remington factory broadsheet. The problem here though is
that between 1873 and 1878, supposedly all 9,202 Greek rifles in .42 Berdan caliber were sold at auction in France. With this in mind, it could well mean that these .43 Egyptian chambered Remington Greek rolling blocks were not part of the equation, as a total of 13,500 of the Greek contract Remington rolling blocks was the original specified quantity ordered by Greece in late 1869. Trust me, after 46 years of studying the military rolling block, the Greek version almost appears to be the "rolling block that never was," overtly due to its appearing in three different calibers at times; a convoluted but detailed story that has mystified all! Anyhow your Circle G marked rifle minus the bayonet lug will be an interesting one to solve...that is after you receive your .42 and .43 caliber cartridges! If it turns out to be chambered in .42 Berdan, it will be the first discovered without a bayonet lug but marked with the ubiquitous G. Incidentally, of those .43 Spanish caliber rolling block rifles shipped to France viewed thus far. all have had two barrel bands and a 30.5" barrel much like a Remington Civil Guard Model...however none had the saber bayonet lug. An example is in my book in the section under France. Anyhow, take care for now Philippe.
Best,
George Layman
I am happy to hear that you confirmed my suspicions that the your Greek crown marked variant was indeed verified as a re-chamber to the Egyptian cartridge. I am afraid it would be difficult to date a particular rifle as to a shipment. However my own take on this is that once word had gotten to US exporters that the both the .43 Spanish and .42 Russian Berdan cartridge had obviously become a dilemma regarding ammunition interchangeability, thus the wisest course of action would be to simply take the remaining .42 caliber Remington Greek rifles and re-ream the chambers to the larger .43 Egyptian cartridge which was by then, firmly established as perhaps the primary French cartridge as far as Remington rolling block rifles were concerned. My feeling on this though is that such an undertaking must have been accomplished not long before the cessation of hostilities with Germany in May of 1871, simply because a fair number Greek model Remington rolling block rifles in .43 Egyptian caliber have been circulated in the USA for several years, most of which have been in very good, if not near excellent condition. This also could be evidence that a number of the 9,202 rifles in the original .42 Berdan caliber never made it to France, and were part of the once advertised "French Models" shown but once in the 1876 Remington factory broadsheet. The problem here though is
that between 1873 and 1878, supposedly all 9,202 Greek rifles in .42 Berdan caliber were sold at auction in France. With this in mind, it could well mean that these .43 Egyptian chambered Remington Greek rolling blocks were not part of the equation, as a total of 13,500 of the Greek contract Remington rolling blocks was the original specified quantity ordered by Greece in late 1869. Trust me, after 46 years of studying the military rolling block, the Greek version almost appears to be the "rolling block that never was," overtly due to its appearing in three different calibers at times; a convoluted but detailed story that has mystified all! Anyhow your Circle G marked rifle minus the bayonet lug will be an interesting one to solve...that is after you receive your .42 and .43 caliber cartridges! If it turns out to be chambered in .42 Berdan, it will be the first discovered without a bayonet lug but marked with the ubiquitous G. Incidentally, of those .43 Spanish caliber rolling block rifles shipped to France viewed thus far. all have had two barrel bands and a 30.5" barrel much like a Remington Civil Guard Model...however none had the saber bayonet lug. An example is in my book in the section under France. Anyhow, take care for now Philippe.
Best,
George Layman
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Dick Hosmer
- Posts: 165
- Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:15 pm
- Contact:
Re: Greek Models ?
Hello Philippe, and also thank you for the (unexpected) information about the "Springfield Remingtons".
This data might help with solving, or at least throwing some light on, another RB "mystery".
Could you please supply a link to the source of the shipping records?
Thank you very much!
This data might help with solving, or at least throwing some light on, another RB "mystery".
Could you please supply a link to the source of the shipping records?
Thank you very much!
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Dick Hosmer
- Posts: 165
- Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:15 pm
- Contact:
Re: Greek Models ?
Thanks again for the detailed breakdown!
Re: Greek Models ?
For clarity, the "Springfield Remington" is the Remington conversion or "transformation" rifle musket. A total of 21,500 were shipped to France, but French receipts show the lesser number.
How can the Remington rifle version with the crown mark be both .42 Berdan and .43 Egyptian and both called the Greek Model? That would be unsupportable in the field. There must be a distinguishing characteristic to be a Greek Model, like always having the bayonet stud bar AND tenon. Also, I have a standard French delivery Egyptian Model with the JOB cartouche (no crown mark), so this is not a distinguishing mark.
There were 15,000 Greek Model rifles delivered to France, along with 18,800 Greek saber bayonets. In other words, the bayonet for the Greek Model is unique from the Egyptian Model, so the rifles must have had the original stud bar and tenon.
How can the Remington rifle version with the crown mark be both .42 Berdan and .43 Egyptian and both called the Greek Model? That would be unsupportable in the field. There must be a distinguishing characteristic to be a Greek Model, like always having the bayonet stud bar AND tenon. Also, I have a standard French delivery Egyptian Model with the JOB cartouche (no crown mark), so this is not a distinguishing mark.
There were 15,000 Greek Model rifles delivered to France, along with 18,800 Greek saber bayonets. In other words, the bayonet for the Greek Model is unique from the Egyptian Model, so the rifles must have had the original stud bar and tenon.
Re: Greek Models ?
For the bayonets, Remington purchased Chassepot types in Germany, so they would not be uniquely identifiable.
It will be interesting to see if the .43 Spanish cartridge fit.
It will be interesting to see if the .43 Spanish cartridge fit.
Re: Greek Models ?
It appears Remington shipped 4 types of saber bayonet to France: the Chassepot style without the small mortise for the Egyptian rifles, a separate type called the Greek Sabre in Remington's records (I believe to be the Chassepot style with small mortise) for Greek Model rifles, a type similar to the unique US Navy Model 1870 but with a curved blade (for the Navy Model 1870 rifles), and brass hilt bayonets called "American Sabres." These last have an American style, completely brass hilt and a curved, yataghan blade 20-1/2 inches long. I bought one of these in France, nearly new, many years ago. They were shipped to France with Remington Spanish Model rifles.
Remington and other dealers also shipped "generic" socket bayonets with Spanish Model rifles.
The question remains, why did Remington and French records list the Greek Model rifle if there was no difference that was visible?
Remington and other dealers also shipped "generic" socket bayonets with Spanish Model rifles.
The question remains, why did Remington and French records list the Greek Model rifle if there was no difference that was visible?
Re: Greek Models ?
Philippe, You know about Franco-Prussian War weapons. I am writing a book about US weapons shipped to France. Please write to me: edatbeach@adelphia.net
Re: Greek Models ?
Philippe, thanks for the very good photos.
I believe the Greek Sabre is the same as the Chassepot, but made in Germany where Remington got all of its similar saber bayonets. Remington called them the Greek Sabre to tell the difference from the Egyptian Sabre (which has not extra little mortice). They shipped so many more Greek Sabre bayonets than Greek Model rifles because the French could also use the bayonets on their Chassepot rifles. When the Remington Greek rifles were sold without bayonets in 1873 & 78 the bayonets were probably kept for use on the Chassepot rifles. See Puaud/Mery book, pages 232-3. The only way a collector could identify a likely Greek Sabre bayonet is by finding a German made Chassepot bayonet with no serial number, likely made by Alex Coppel or Kirschbaum (from which Remington bought Egyptian Sabres).
The saber bayonet in photo no. 2 is what Remington called the “American Saber.” It has a ribbed grip on the hilt. Janzen (no. 4-4) calls it the Remington Export, I call it the 1870 Remington Export because it was made for only a very short time in that period. Puaud/Mery picture it on page 183.
There were no U.S. Navy Model 1870 Sword Bayonets shipped to France with the M1870 Navy rifles. Navy and Springfield Armory records are clear that the Navy did not sell bayonets with the rifles. Records show that Remington obtained and shipped 10,000 “Navy Sabres” at the same time as the rifles were shipped. Just as in the fact that most M1870 Navy rifles shipped to France were not inspected by the Navy, the “Model 1870” bayonets that Remington obtained were also not inspected--the Navy did not inspect weapons for commercial sale. The only type of bayonet which fits the M1870 rifle that is uninspected is the type with the yataghan blade; the straight blade types always show Navy inspection. Later these “Remington M1870” bayonets were likely sold as surplus to Mexico after the war.
The story of these various 1870 Remington bayonets will be published in the next journal of the American Society of Bayonet Collectors.
Thank you for the dates of the surplus rifle sales: 6,640 + 9,202= 15,842 but Remington records show they shipped only 15,000.
In the photo of the three saber bayonets, the type with fish scale hilt on either side of the M1870 are the Ames Export, Janzen 4-1. The first record of the sale of these is in the late 1870s, well after the F-P War. They are more common than the 1870 Remington Export.
I believe the Greek Sabre is the same as the Chassepot, but made in Germany where Remington got all of its similar saber bayonets. Remington called them the Greek Sabre to tell the difference from the Egyptian Sabre (which has not extra little mortice). They shipped so many more Greek Sabre bayonets than Greek Model rifles because the French could also use the bayonets on their Chassepot rifles. When the Remington Greek rifles were sold without bayonets in 1873 & 78 the bayonets were probably kept for use on the Chassepot rifles. See Puaud/Mery book, pages 232-3. The only way a collector could identify a likely Greek Sabre bayonet is by finding a German made Chassepot bayonet with no serial number, likely made by Alex Coppel or Kirschbaum (from which Remington bought Egyptian Sabres).
The saber bayonet in photo no. 2 is what Remington called the “American Saber.” It has a ribbed grip on the hilt. Janzen (no. 4-4) calls it the Remington Export, I call it the 1870 Remington Export because it was made for only a very short time in that period. Puaud/Mery picture it on page 183.
There were no U.S. Navy Model 1870 Sword Bayonets shipped to France with the M1870 Navy rifles. Navy and Springfield Armory records are clear that the Navy did not sell bayonets with the rifles. Records show that Remington obtained and shipped 10,000 “Navy Sabres” at the same time as the rifles were shipped. Just as in the fact that most M1870 Navy rifles shipped to France were not inspected by the Navy, the “Model 1870” bayonets that Remington obtained were also not inspected--the Navy did not inspect weapons for commercial sale. The only type of bayonet which fits the M1870 rifle that is uninspected is the type with the yataghan blade; the straight blade types always show Navy inspection. Later these “Remington M1870” bayonets were likely sold as surplus to Mexico after the war.
The story of these various 1870 Remington bayonets will be published in the next journal of the American Society of Bayonet Collectors.
Thank you for the dates of the surplus rifle sales: 6,640 + 9,202= 15,842 but Remington records show they shipped only 15,000.
In the photo of the three saber bayonets, the type with fish scale hilt on either side of the M1870 are the Ames Export, Janzen 4-1. The first record of the sale of these is in the late 1870s, well after the F-P War. They are more common than the 1870 Remington Export.
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tanpatsu
Re: Greek Models ?
Thanks Philippe. Wow very interesting! If you don't mind at your convenience, would it be possible to get a few photos of the rifle; in fact if they would be similar to those you posted here would be fine. Reason being its the first Franco-Prussian War era .43 Spanish Remington I have seen with a barrel longer than 30.5 inches, to include the first I have viewed having the Circle G without a saber bayonet lug, as well as the caliber other than .42 Berdan. If you could contact me at bendestet@yahoo.com, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
George
George
Re: Greek Models ?
Philippe,
Here is a photo of a Remington RB sabre bayonet with the extra mortise. It is marked Chatellerault and 1871 on the blade. I am trying to get the measurement of the muzzle ring bore from the friend who sent the photo. Perhaps this was intended for the Remington Greek Model Rifle.
Here is a photo of a Remington RB sabre bayonet with the extra mortise. It is marked Chatellerault and 1871 on the blade. I am trying to get the measurement of the muzzle ring bore from the friend who sent the photo. Perhaps this was intended for the Remington Greek Model Rifle.
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- Greek Rem saber bayt lo.jpg (41.5 KiB) Viewed 9762 times
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tanpatsu
Re: Greek Models ?
Hi Philippe,
Ed, I don't know if you had this done previously, but if not, I wonder if it might help if someone on the coming RSA research team trip could measure the diameter of the muzzle areas of the Greek example in the Remington archive room, and then perhaps you could compare the inner diameters of all bayonet examples that you obtain information on? In addition, though I know the presence of the tenon would make it difficult, but if it could somehow be determined if a standard Egyptian saber bayonet would at least give an indication to fit the museum's Greek rifle might also be of interest. For some reason I get the feeling that like several other pieces in the Remington archive collection, (i.e. examples of Argentine and Egyptian Models in the non-standard .50 caliber etc.) that the brass tag #117 Greek model in Ilion is a pre-production prototype or tool room pattern model that didn't go into production as intended. Hence, a reason why no collectors in France (at least to my knowledge) have ever uncovered a Remington Greek Model or another Remington made rolling block with the identical tenon feature. In a somewhat related matter, these .43 Egyptian rifles with the KM markings, seem to be among the earliest in this caliber and two of the dozen or so known, also have a faint J.O.B. cartouche as well. Hope this is of assistance.
George
Ed, I don't know if you had this done previously, but if not, I wonder if it might help if someone on the coming RSA research team trip could measure the diameter of the muzzle areas of the Greek example in the Remington archive room, and then perhaps you could compare the inner diameters of all bayonet examples that you obtain information on? In addition, though I know the presence of the tenon would make it difficult, but if it could somehow be determined if a standard Egyptian saber bayonet would at least give an indication to fit the museum's Greek rifle might also be of interest. For some reason I get the feeling that like several other pieces in the Remington archive collection, (i.e. examples of Argentine and Egyptian Models in the non-standard .50 caliber etc.) that the brass tag #117 Greek model in Ilion is a pre-production prototype or tool room pattern model that didn't go into production as intended. Hence, a reason why no collectors in France (at least to my knowledge) have ever uncovered a Remington Greek Model or another Remington made rolling block with the identical tenon feature. In a somewhat related matter, these .43 Egyptian rifles with the KM markings, seem to be among the earliest in this caliber and two of the dozen or so known, also have a faint J.O.B. cartouche as well. Hope this is of assistance.
George