REMINGTON .44 NEW MODEL ARMY REVOLVER OF 186?

[michaelgoodrick]

Hi I am Mike a new guy to this page but a long time fan of Remington arms REMINGTON .44 NEW MODEL ARMY REVOLVER OF 186? . MANUFACTURING ORIGIN UNKNOWN ! There is no question as to the age of this revolver; it is of the percussion era of the 1860's. It is well made to Remington’s high standard. It has ALL the correct sub-inspector markings, such as, W, C, P and J and more on all the correct components. Yet the barrel has no address, but has a serial number 142273 on the bottom that does not match the number on the frame 69880 under the grips. The gun has very good blue mixing to brown, which looks to be original.
Why is the Remington address missing? it would seem from the mail others have the same problem and I can quite see if the pistol has been referbed that the name could go missing.The relevant inspections marks perhaps this gun had the original barrel replaced in period of use who knows any help would be welcome. The cylinder shows slight dings, the grips have been replace again professional replacement, crisp tight mechanics good crisp working order and the bore looks to be good, no big spots or rings and definitely a revolver from the 1800\'s. The revolver still functions correctly for cocking, firing, and loading. A very interesting revolver. Any help with dates or any other ideas I would be most greatful.

[michaelgoodrick]

Hi Rolling Block,
Thank you for your reply sorry for delay in replying I am finding my way around the site I have now got I think pictures for your interest attached I apologise for the quality I am still working out the system............
Very best regards Mike G.

[gmaque]

Mike
I suspect the barrel is a replacement. The front sight is definately not the original. The sight appears to be set a little farther back than the original, but from the picture I can't tell for sure. You might want to check the sight location agains another gun. You might want to pull the trigger guard to see what the serial number is on the top of the rear tang. Serial numbers were stamped three places. On the bottom of the barrel, on the frame under the left grip and on the tang of the trigger guard. Hope this helps.

[michaelgoodrick]

hi gmaque
I also suspect the barrel is a replacement any idea when this may have taken place? Would this be a military arsenal repair perhaps? I am not sure about front sight did the civilian version differ at all or an alteration for target shooting may be? I pulled the trigger guard to see what the serial number is on the top of the rear tang its blank the only mark is inspection on front edge of brass finger rail a lower case "h". On the frame either side of the fixing screw I have inspection marks "R"or"K" and "Y"or "V". Thank you for your input any further ideas would be great.

[gmaque]

Mike
There is no differance in front sights on military and civilian guns. The only differance you might encounter is on "transition" guns. These are early "New Model" guns that were manufacture using some parts that were left in inventory when the "Old Model" was discontinued. The front sight on the "Old Model" is a brass cone shaped sight, while the new model sight is a pinched steel sight. Some of these transition guns also used barrles from "Old Model" guns and will retain the "1961" barrel marking and address. In either case the civilian guns and military guns used the same sights. It sounds to me like what you may have is a "New Model" frame that has had the barrel replaced much later, perhaps to make it a shooter, who knows. I can't explain the absence of a serial number on the trigger guard tang. Since you say the guard has a inspector mark on it I would have expected the serial number to be there. I can only guess that when the barrel was replaced, the trigger guard was also replaced with a repro and sombody stamped the inspector mark to make the gun appear more original. I seriously doubt any of this haveing been done at a military arsenal.

[michaelgoodrick]

Hi gmaque,
Thank you for your input the identifying of an individual gun is quite complex especially when parts have been replaced could you put a date on the barrel and the frame please the barrel has no address, but has a serial number 142273 on the bottom that does not match the number on the frame 69880 under the grips this might give me abetter idea of time scales. Sorry I am very much a beginner at the Remington pistols I have on order a number of books but yet to receive them. I am very grateful for your kind help I bought the gun in auction a month back, my first original or may be not, perhaps a bittzer for shooting, all the time learning.

[carvintom]

Wow! You're just the guy I want to talk to. I just posted -- actually, right underneath your posting -- the desire to locate some "scalable" pictures/drawings of the Remington 1861 so I can make a hand-carved replica and you've actually *got* the gun!

I have already carved a 1884 Springfield 45-70 Trapdoor Rifle, but it looks a little lonely on my wall. (see my Oct 2, 2009 posting on http://www.carvintom.blogspot.com).

I have some really good side photos but no top, bottom or end views and no way to accurately determine dimensions.

If you would be so kind as:

1) to give the measurement of the length of the barrel, from tip to the point where it enters the frame
2) get me a top and/or bottom view of the entire gun,

I think I could go ahead with the project with those two pieces to the puzzle.

Thanks in advance,

Carvin' Tom

[Trail Boss]

Greetings,
The front sight appears to be a Marble's, minus the small gold bead. Many early post WWII black powder competitors used these because they came in a variety of heights; therefore, you could zero the gun properly, especially with the added feature of the dovetail for windage. The gold dots had to be removed because they were not legal for competition. This was done by merely pinching them off with a pliers. Marble's is still in business and this sight is still offered.

Cheers,
Trail Boss

[michaelgoodrick]

Hi Trail Boss,
Thank you for your input your comments go along quite well with what I am thinking the gun was kept in good order as a shooter and your sight says a lot for that thank you once again.
Mike G.
I may have hit the wrong input key sorry.........................

[michaelgoodrick]

Hi Rolling Block, done a careful check of the serial numbers on both barrel and frame, yes they do match in size and definition? Very close in comparison. Sorry about pics I am struggling with the macro on my camera when I get over that I will set you up with the numbers. Thanks for this info "Your frame number indicates mid to later civil war era and barrel number towards end of production" which was? "Yes it could be an arsenal or civil replacement barrel on your gun" any tell tail signs that might tell me which please? and looking at the pics you have posted, the gun looks original in all aspects bare the front sight. So could you post pics of sight and serial numbers please? ”Yes as soon as. Trail Boss says "The front sight appears to be a Marble's, minus the small gold bead." "The gold dots had to be removed because they were not legal for competition. This was done by merely pinching them off with a pliers." It does look that way to me so good chance its a Marble's. So thanks guys. As ever best Regards Mike G

[Trail Boss]

Greetings. I have a similar posting several places down on the list, asking for info on my 1858/63 NM revolver, which also has mismatched numbers. It was made about mid-1863. Again the central question is whether there were state or federal arsenals rebuilding these revolvers. It would be wonderful if an expert on this could give us a few comments on this. These revolvers were in wide use by the military during and after the Civil War, so I assume arsenals were working on them???????. Comments please or info on where I can find the details.

Thanks in advance for any help anyone can provide.

Trail Boss

[Mike Strietbeck]

Mike

Based on the Ordnance Dept. recieving records, the following serial number information will get you close to a manufacturing date for the barrel and frame for your NMA.

Barrel s/n 142273 Mfg. date March 1865
Frame s/n 69880 Mfg. date May 1864


Best regards,

Mike Strietbeck

[billt]

Hi Fred,
Welcome to the RSA. As far as I know there were no letters in the NMA serial numbers. The C probably means the frame was condemned and that is why there is no cartouche on the grips. Revolvers with condemned parts were sold to the trade i.e civilian. The barrel on your was manufactured in June 1864 and the frame in July of the same year.

Regards,

Bill

[billt]

I believe in this case the mismatch occurred at the factory. The Remington Brothers did not throw anything away that could be used in the manufacturing of their products. During the manufacturing process the revolvers were inspected by company inspectors and if the revolver was part of a Government contract, Ordinance Inspectors. I believe revolvers, which did not pass inspection were set aside to be repaired or recycled at a later date. I have done a little research on mixed serial numbers and have data on New Model Armies with four months between the barrel and frame manufacturing dates.
Your revolver is interesting if in fact the “C” means the frame was condemned. The barrel was probably removed and put on another revolver whose barrel did not pass inspection, which was subsequently shipped to the Ordinance Department. Your frame could have gathered dust until the war was over and Remington had an opportunity to recycle it for the Civilian Trade.
One other thought, the “C” meant the part could not be used on revolvers made for the Government and would have had no impact on civilian made guns.