I recently came across two side by side 12 gauge Remington model 1894's with damascus barrels and the swirly finish. I am having a bit of trouble determining exactly what I have and am hoping someone here may help. The first one is numbered 103238 and has a P and an A on the underside of the barrels. It has a common (to both barrels) extractor and is in reasonable shape. The second one is numbered 114681 and has the same P and A with a star symbol stamped on the underside of the barrels. This gun has the individual barrel ejectors with the little hammers in the forearm. Unfortunately, the stock has had a rubber pad added and one of the ejector hammers and the spring to hold the lock up is broken. From reading some of the letters on this site I have determined that the numbers on the barrel tang(?) reciever lug(?) are a pellet count from a test fire. Also I believe the A is for the grade, the P, I do not know. The 681 has smaller p's that would remind me of a firing "proof", the 238 dosen't seem to have them. If anyone can help me with information as to manufacture dates and what some of these markings mean it would be greatly appreciated. At this time I intend to keep the 238 and may possibly put the 681 up for sale as a parts or restoration project gun. Thanks, and have a good day.
JT
12 gauge Remington 1894
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Researcher
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Re: 12 gauge Remington 1894
The 103238 gun is an early 1896-vintage gun and the 114681 is an 1899 vintage gun. My Father's old 103673 AE-Grade also has the A and the P on the bottom of the barrel tubes. I suspect the A is for the grade of the gun and the P is the mark of the supplier of the rough forged Damascus tubes Remington made the barrels from.
The pellet counts are on the bottom of the barrel lug, and if the numbers are three digits, that is the count, if only two digits a leading 3 is implied. Dad's gun has a 42 for the right barrel side of the lug and a 30 on the left, so the pellet counts in a 30-inch circle at forty yards would have been 342 from the right barrel and 330 from the left. The load Remington used according to surviving hang tags was 1 1/4 ounce of #8 shot. It appears thru about 1901 they used soft shot, 499 pellets to the load and beginning 1902 chilled shot going 511 pellets to the 1 1/4 ounce load. So, Dad's gun patterned 342/499 = 68.5% right and 330/499 = 66% left.
The pellet counts are on the bottom of the barrel lug, and if the numbers are three digits, that is the count, if only two digits a leading 3 is implied. Dad's gun has a 42 for the right barrel side of the lug and a 30 on the left, so the pellet counts in a 30-inch circle at forty yards would have been 342 from the right barrel and 330 from the left. The load Remington used according to surviving hang tags was 1 1/4 ounce of #8 shot. It appears thru about 1901 they used soft shot, 499 pellets to the load and beginning 1902 chilled shot going 511 pellets to the 1 1/4 ounce load. So, Dad's gun patterned 342/499 = 68.5% right and 330/499 = 66% left.
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JPT262
Re: 12 gauge Remington 1894
Thanks, Researcher! Do you know if there is a grade difference between the '96 extractor model and the '99 split ejector model? I guess my confusion is, from what I have seen, the E grade is all engraved, the A grade is plain with Remington in block letters on the side of the reciever, what defines B, C, and D? Would that be stamped to the underside of the barrel as well? The '96 has a long sweeping trigger guard that extends to the rounded grip on the stock with the serial number script engraved (beautiful). The '99 does not it is short and the stock has a squared grip with a hard rubber end cap. Also, any idea what these are worth in fair shape with most of the case color worn off? I guess that's kind of a hard question without seeing them, but if you have a ballpark idea that would be great. Thanks for all the help, it is greatly appreciated.
JT
JT
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Researcher
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Re: 12 gauge Remington 1894
Remington Hammerless Doubles -- Two patents were issued on the same day, October 30, 1894. No. 528,507 pertaining to the milling of the frame was granted to R. C. Fay of Ilion, New York, assignor to the Remington Arms Company of same place; and No. 528,508 pertaining to the automatic ejectors, to R.C. Fay and G.E. Humphreys of Ilion, New York, assignor to the Remington Arms Company of same place.
If the gun is absolutely plain with no engraving, just "Remington Arms Co." stamped on the side of the frame it is an A-grade if a Model 1894. Model 1894 serial numbers were in the 100,000 range and often preceded by a P a Remington stock letter. Also perfectly plain was the lower priced Model 1900 with serial numbers in the 300,000 range, and often a stock letter of Q. These were also known as the K-grade.
A Model 1894 B-grade had just a bit of borderline engraving. As the grades went up C-, D-, and E-grade the engraving became more extensive, the stock wood and checkering finer, and the overall workmanship better. There is normally a grade letter stamped on the left side watertable, or on "bridge-frame guns" (usually 103,500 and lower serial numbers) on the bridge. Also, if you remove the trigger guard, the grade letter is often stamped in the wood after the serial number.
If a Remington Model 1894 is fitted with automatic ejectors the the written grade designation has a letter E added to it and if it has Remington Steel barrels an R or Ordnance Steel Barrels an O -- AE-grade (A-grade with ejectors and the regular Damascus barrels), AER-grade (A-grade with ejectors and Remington Steel barrels), BO-grade (B-grade with Ordnance Steel barrels) or CEO-grade (C-grade with ejectors and Ordnance Steel barrels). I’ve never seen these extra letters stamped on the gun’s watertable. In the Model 1900s things are reversed. Remington must have considered their Remington Steel barrels standard and appended a D if the gun was equipped with 2-blade Damascus barrels -- KD-grade or KED-grade. "Ordnance Steel" is normally stamped on the top of the barrels on AO-/AEO- and BO-/BEO-Grade Remington doubles and engraved on higher grades.
You need to check out Charles G. Semmer's book "Remington Double Shotguns." It is available from the author 7885 Cyd Drive, Denver, CO 80221, for $60 plus $5 shipping and handling. It is invaluable if you are going to shoot, invest, collect or play in the Remington double gun field. Remington supplied a number of different pattern Damascus barrels on these old doubles. A picture of their salesman’s sample of the various styles of Damascus available is shown on page 275 of Semmer's book.
If the gun is absolutely plain with no engraving, just "Remington Arms Co." stamped on the side of the frame it is an A-grade if a Model 1894. Model 1894 serial numbers were in the 100,000 range and often preceded by a P a Remington stock letter. Also perfectly plain was the lower priced Model 1900 with serial numbers in the 300,000 range, and often a stock letter of Q. These were also known as the K-grade.
A Model 1894 B-grade had just a bit of borderline engraving. As the grades went up C-, D-, and E-grade the engraving became more extensive, the stock wood and checkering finer, and the overall workmanship better. There is normally a grade letter stamped on the left side watertable, or on "bridge-frame guns" (usually 103,500 and lower serial numbers) on the bridge. Also, if you remove the trigger guard, the grade letter is often stamped in the wood after the serial number.
If a Remington Model 1894 is fitted with automatic ejectors the the written grade designation has a letter E added to it and if it has Remington Steel barrels an R or Ordnance Steel Barrels an O -- AE-grade (A-grade with ejectors and the regular Damascus barrels), AER-grade (A-grade with ejectors and Remington Steel barrels), BO-grade (B-grade with Ordnance Steel barrels) or CEO-grade (C-grade with ejectors and Ordnance Steel barrels). I’ve never seen these extra letters stamped on the gun’s watertable. In the Model 1900s things are reversed. Remington must have considered their Remington Steel barrels standard and appended a D if the gun was equipped with 2-blade Damascus barrels -- KD-grade or KED-grade. "Ordnance Steel" is normally stamped on the top of the barrels on AO-/AEO- and BO-/BEO-Grade Remington doubles and engraved on higher grades.
You need to check out Charles G. Semmer's book "Remington Double Shotguns." It is available from the author 7885 Cyd Drive, Denver, CO 80221, for $60 plus $5 shipping and handling. It is invaluable if you are going to shoot, invest, collect or play in the Remington double gun field. Remington supplied a number of different pattern Damascus barrels on these old doubles. A picture of their salesman’s sample of the various styles of Damascus available is shown on page 275 of Semmer's book.
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JPT262
Re: 12 gauge Remington 1894
Thanks again Researcher. I am keeping an eye out for the book, hate to buy it new as I collect WWI and WWII firearms. It is good to have an idea about what I have and you have been a tremendous help.
JT
JT