1889 load data

[Trail Boss]

Greetings, I have recently obtained an 1889 Remington 10 GA, No. 3 (Damascus), with 32" barrels. I would like to obtain the date of manufacture, and the SN is 69931. In addition, I would like to know what the original pattern load was at the old Remington factory for 10 GA. I have learned that the pattern shot count numbers are stamped on the locking lug, and I would like to know the load, shot size, wads, distance, size of target circle, etc., so I can duplicate it. Finally, I am looking for some light 10 GA loads for use with smokeless powder, with very low pressure. One and one-half ounce would be the max payload with lead shot. Also one and one-quarter. I have visited several powder company web sites and looked in several loading manuals, and all I find is max/hot loads for modern magnum shells. I appreciate your assistance in advance. Trail Boss.

[rudybolla]

Finally, I am looking for some light 10 GA loads for use with smokeless powder, with very low pressure. One and one-half ounce would be the max payload with lead shot. Also one and one-quarter.

Why not just shoot the BP loads you are seeking info on? Using smokeless in this fine gun would be like making a carnivore eat veggies!

[paul harm]

I'm not sure what was used for the 10ga. The 12 was 1 1/4oz of #8's. For some load data: Remington black hulls - Win 209 primers, SP10 wad, UnivClays and a 1 1/2 lead. Anything from 26 to 29 grs of powder will give you 6100 t0 6900 psi and 950 to 1161 fps. I believe you can buy the Federal 10ga hulls from Ballistic Products already primed. With them you can use Win primers, 1 1/2oz of lead, SP10 wads, 34 or 35 grs of SR4756 and get 7100 to 7600psi and 1157 to 1221 fps. The same last load with 1 1/4oz of shot will give you 5400 psi at 1212 fps. Hope this helps. I shoot both BP and nitro in all my damascus SxS's, but usually shoot nitro because I'm shooting around 20 boxes a week. Add my wife shooting about 15 a week and BP is out of the question [ cost ] . The load data was taken from the Double Gun Journal, Vol 11, Issue 3, " Finding Out For Myself Part III, The Forgotten Ten" by Sherman Bell. Good luck - Paul

[Researcher]

Your Model 1889 is of 1895 vintage according to the table in Charles Semmer's book on Remington doubles. Smokeless powders had been around for about 20 years by the time your gun was built. In the April 1897 Remington Arms Co. catalogue it says "Guaranteed for nitro powders" on the Model 1889 pages. In those days though the heaviest factory loaded 10-gauge shells were 1 1/4 ounce, the same as the heaviest 12-gauge shells.

[Trail Boss]

Mr Harm, I really appreciate the load data. A friend of mine sent me several xerox copies of Mr Bell's articles from the Double Gun Journal, but I never saw the one on "The Forgotten Ten." In fact, I use his pet load of 25gr SR 7625 with one and one-eighth ounce shot in one of my damascus 12's. I will contact the Journal and see if I can get a copy of that article on the 10's. I like his style, backed up with pressure and chronograph data. I can't find any SR 4756 right now, so maybe there will be some loads for SR 7625 in the article??
Thanks again - Trail Boss.

[Trail Boss]

Mr. Researcher,
Thanks for the info on the serial number. I have a Winchester catalog from the 1890's, and the heaviest loads are indeed one and one-quarter ounces; however, the powder charges are very high with black powder. For ducks, I would like to push a little more shot with a lot less velocity, but for most wing shooting, I will stick to a light one and one-eighth ounce load.
Thanks again - Trail Boss

[paul harm]

7625-30gr, 1 1/8 lead, SP10+1.25"FBS = 4800psi, 1129fps.
32gr, 1 1/4 lead, SP10 + 2 16ga .070NC = 6700 at 1187
32gr, 1 1/2 lead, SP10 - 7600 at 1191
30gr, 1 1/4 bismuth, SP10, roll crimp = 5800 at 1084
The first three where with a star crimp, all with Federal hulls and Win 209 primers- hope this helps. I've found that 4756 is NOT a cold weather powder- I got bloopers. JMHO. Hope this helps - Paul

[paul harm]

The following is just my opnion, no disrespect to Researcher or anyone else. I've also read that Remington shotguns were proofed for nitro powders. The question I have is, " what were the pressures of nitro powders" back when they were first introduced ? They were a " bulk smokeless powder". I don't believe they had any more pressure than BP- but could be wrong. One used the same measure for both when reloading. Then along came smokeless with higher pressures and the problems with overloading- useing the same measure. Ah, damascus barrels got a bad name. So then shell manufactors made high brass and low brass shells. The high brass had a higher base wad inside so one couldn't put too much powder in it- it was made for the new smokeless powders. The low brass had a thinner base wad inside that was made for BP or the older bulk nitro powders. So, all that being said, I load all my nitro loads low pressure [ 7000 psi or under ] out of respect for 100+ year old guns. Do I think a modern load will blow one up - no. But they will be shot loose, or off face, if too many are shot in them. Can they be blown up - yes. I did it . Thought I was loading Pyrodex and loaded IMR PB. It took four shots [ tested at 20,000psi ] while shooting skeet with a damascus 1889 Remington. I still shoot my six different damascus guns, I'm a " little" more carefull when reloading. Paul

[Researcher]

Paul is correct, the factory smokeless loads in the days prior to WW-I were very likely less then the SAAMI spec factory loads of today. I've done quite a bit of reading, and the pressure info doesn't come readily to hand, but with some interpolation I think 9000 psi is a reasonable number for 10- and 12-gauge smokeless loads in those days. There were essentially two types of smokeless powders, the "bulk" smokeless such as DuPont that could be loaded measure for measure like black powder, and "dense" smokeless (I'm at our place in Kodiak, AK, for a while and away from my research materials, so I don't want to try to name which powders were dense and which were bulk from memory) which needed to be loaded by grains. After WW-I "progressive burning" powders were available and Western Cartridge Co. applied these powders (I think DuPont Oval and DuPont 93) to shotgun shells and brought out their heavier/higher velocity Super-X loads in 1922. SAAMI Specs setting standard length 10- and 12-gauge max pressures in the 11000 to 11500 psi range came into effect about 1925, and ammo companies began putting those Damascus barrel warnings on their shell boxes. Now the real question is -- was this reality or as my Father, Grandfather and Uncles believed, a Winchester/Remington ploy to sell new shotguns? Anyone who has been around much knows tha North American Nimrods began stuffing those new hotter shells in all manner of old shotguns when they came out in 1922 and certainly continued to do so for the next 70 years, with the vast majority of these old smokepoles taking it in stride. The only thing that finally retired one old Remington Model 1900 KED-Grade 12-gauge in my family was my Cousins using steel shot in it in the mid-1980s and bulging the chokes and breaking the solder holding the barrels and ribs together at the muzzle.

I don't shoot Twist or Damascus barrel guns, but I do handload low pressure 7/8 ounce loads for clay target useuse iin my old steel barrel doubles, just to be easy on me and the old guns.

[Trail Boss]

Thanks again guys. I checked some Lyman Blackpowder Handbooks (old and new) last night, and some had blackpowder shotgun pressure readings listed. Some of the very heavy blackpowder loads were in the 5000 PSI range as I recall, so I think 5000-6000 will be about my maximum for ducks with nitro. This is just to be on the safe side, so as not to damage a very fine old gun, and most of my wing shooting will be done with much lighter loads.

I have been shooting blackpowder guns for over 40 years, and I have experimented with many of the old bulk shotgun powders. In general, I have found them to be hotter than modern GOI black. Perhaps a rough equivalent would be with the modern Swiss black powder, which is hotter than GOI. The new Hodgdon 777 is said to be about 15 percent hotter than GOI, and my experimentation bears that out. Now here is a warning. I have shot several old batches of bulk smokeless shotgun powder from "back in the day" that were positively dangerous with extremely high pressures. Apparently, they had deteriorated with age and gotten much stronger, so I no longer recommend anybody try them. One I tried in a Ruger Old Army, and it went off like a 44 Magnum, scaring me out of my wits. A lighter gun might have burst. It smelled fine, but was a bit clumpy in the can. Have a nice weekend and I appreciate your help in an area where good info is hard to find. Trail Boss