Grandfather's 1889

Topics related to Pre - 1898 Remington Shotguns
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DFM68
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Grandfather's 1889

Post by DFM68 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:07 pm

I have my grandfather's 1889 hammer gun. Matching serial numbers 250182. Wondering what year it was produced, were the barrels twist or decarbonized, and I can't lift the barrels off, if anyone might have an idea why.
Thanks

Researcher
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Re: Grandfather's 1889

Post by Researcher » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:48 pm

According to the serial number chronology produced from surviving shipping records by the late Charles Semmer for his book Remington Double Shotguns, 250182 would be from 1905.

The Remington New Model Double Barrel Shotgun was made in seven qualities from No. 1 to No. 7. The three lowest grades were the same, plain with no engraving, except for barrel material. The No. 1 had Decarbonized Steel barrels, No. 2 had Twist barrels and No. 3 had Damascus barrels.
Model 1889 pg 10 1901 catalogue.jpg
Model 1889 pg 10 1901 catalogue.jpg (90.25 KiB) Viewed 566 times
Model 1889 pg 11 1901 catalogue.jpg
Model 1889 pg 11 1901 catalogue.jpg (100.7 KiB) Viewed 566 times
Last edited by Researcher on Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

DFM68
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Re: Grandfather's 1889

Post by DFM68 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:29 pm

Thank you so much. I can see the "1" by itself well before the serial number. So, it has decarbonized 30 inch barrels.
The right barrel has been split about halfway down, (according to family) by a cousin who fired it after sticking it in mud. The action locks up nicely and hammers are tight, with clean trigger breaks. Firing pins and springs seem nice. I would love to make it a shooter with a decent set of replacement barrels.
1. If I can locate the proper barrels and after a thorough inspection by a competent gunsmith, are the decarbonized barrels capable of shooting reduced pressure modern powder loads or is it strictly black powder?
2. Is there a list of competent double gun smiths in South Carolina, where I can get parts and have the gun prepped for use?
Please understand this is a labor of love and I can picture my dad smiling down.

AZMike
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Re: Grandfather's 1889

Post by AZMike » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:50 am

I have a set of barrels.
PM me for details.
Mike

Researcher
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Re: Grandfather's 1889

Post by Researcher » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:35 am

Surviving hang-tags show that at the time your gun, 250182, was built, Remington Arms Co. was targeting their 12-gauge guns with the Union Metallic Cartridge Co.'s ARROW shell with Load No. 8, with #8 chilled shot. Load No. 8 was 3 drams of bulk smokeless powder pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot. From the 1905 UMC catalog --
1905 ARROW Bulk Powder Loads, pg 62.jpg
1905 ARROW Bulk Powder Loads, pg 62.jpg (455.3 KiB) Viewed 549 times
Earlier, they were using the UMC SMOKELESS shell with the same load, and later they went to using the low brass UMC NITRO CLUB shell with the same load which in the NITRO CLUB shell was Load No. X8.
Last edited by Researcher on Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

Drew Hause
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Re: Grandfather's 1889

Post by Drew Hause » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:06 am

It is assumed the "Remington Steel" used on the A Grade Hammerless Model of 1894 starting in 1897, K Grade (Model 1900) Hammerless, and Model of 1894 Hammerless Grade “F.E.” Trap Gun (introduced in 1906) was similar to Marlin “Special Rolled Steel” and Winchester “Rolled Steel” - all "cold rolled" Decarbonized steel.
The April 1897 Remington catalog stated “Remington blued steel barrels are manufactured in our own works” and the Sears catalog No. 112 c. 1902 states the K Grade has “fine Decarbonized steel barrels”.
The tensile strength of the barrels would be similar to AISI 1020 Low Carbon Steel, of which many pre-WWI U.S. maker's barrels were made.

DFM68
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Re: Grandfather's 1889

Post by DFM68 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:48 pm

I'm new to the vintage gun world and am suffering from the learning curve. Would an 1889 manufactured in 1905 be chambered in 2 5/8, or 2 1/2? Also, is there a modern powder load that is made with similar pressures, to the Arrow shells described above?

Researcher
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Re: Grandfather's 1889

Post by Researcher » Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:26 pm

It certainly can be confusing for the newcomer.

From the get go of cartridge shotguns here in North America, the "standard" length for 12-gauge paper shells was 2 5/8 inch, but 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3 and 3 1/4 inch 12-gauge shells were available. For England and Europe the 2 1/2 inch (65 mm) shell was the "standard." Remington Arms Co. 12-gauge doubles were normally chambered 2 5/8 inch. If they were chambered for longer shells they were marked on the bottom of the barrels, just forward of the barrel flats.
121252 DEO-Grade 07 2 7-8 inch chamber marking.jpg
121252 DEO-Grade 07 2 7-8 inch chamber marking.jpg (344.13 KiB) Viewed 532 times
123247 11 Chamber Length Markings.jpg
123247 11 Chamber Length Markings.jpg (130.24 KiB) Viewed 532 times
These are few and far between and most always higher grade, special order guns, not entry-level guns made for stock.

During the first decade of the 20th Century the 2 3/4 inch shell was becoming the standard. The Winchester Model 1897 pump gun was made for 2 3/4 inch shells, the John M. Browning designed Remington Autoloading Shotgun introduced in 1905 and the John D. Pedersen designed Remington Repeating Shotgun introduced in 1908 were both made for 2 3/4 inch shells, etc.

By 1907, our North American ammunition companies quit offering 12-gauge 1 1/4 ounce loads in the 2 5/8 inch shells. One and 1 1/8 ounce loads continued to be offered in 2 5/8 inch 12-gauge cases to WW-II. From then on one had to go to 2 3/4 inch or longer 12-gauge shells for 1 1/4 ounce loads. Now a fly in the ointment is that several of our manufacturers, A.H. Fox Gun Co. and Parker Bros. for sure, felt that holding chambers 1/8 inch shorter than the intended shell improved patterns. I've shot nominally 2 3/4 inch 12-gauge shells in 2 5/8 inch chambers for over fifty years. Most of our modern plastic 12-gauge shells marked 2 3/4 inch are actually a bit short to quite a bit short.

DFM68
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Re: Grandfather's 1889

Post by DFM68 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:55 pm

Thank you. That was an awesome lesson. I am learning quickly, as I have to if I'm going to make this project a reality.
I'm still having a hard time with the decarbonized steel. Is this a fluid steel. Is it safe to shoot? I currently have an old Sterlingworth (1914) that was given to me (no finish, repaired stock, etc.) that I use with modern ammo for clays, low pressure of course, after a gunsmith checked it out for me. Was wondering if the decarbonized steel was similar to the fluid steel?

Researcher
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Re: Grandfather's 1889

Post by Researcher » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:07 pm

FWIW here is a hang tag from a couple years earlier Remington New Model Double Barrel Shot Gun --
223223 front.jpg
223223 front.jpg (271.74 KiB) Viewed 527 times
223223 back.jpg
223223 back.jpg (236.4 KiB) Viewed 527 times

Drew Hause
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Re: Grandfather's 1889

Post by Drew Hause » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:19 am

“1895 Smokeless Powders For Shotguns”
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wv0MAQ ... =PA446&lpg
3 1/4 Dram/40 grains DuPont Bulk Smokeless 1 1/8 oz. = 7440 psi
3 1/4 Dram/44 grains “E.C.” Bulk Smokeless 1 1/8 oz. = 7584 psi

The 1933 edition of ”Smokeless Shotgun Powders” by Wallace Coxe and E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co. reported the pressure for 3 Dram Eq. with 1 1/4 oz. of DuPont Bulk smokeless at 9,600 psi.

1 1/8 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was 9500 - 10,500 psi.

Note Researcher's catalog illustrations "Guaranteed For Nitro Powders"

Here's another

Image

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