8mmx58r Brass Cases - how do I make them ?

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DoctorBill
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8mmx58r Brass Cases - how do I make them ?

Post by DoctorBill »

......edited in 11-16-2020 - see later posts where I figured this out !
.
I am obtaining a Swedish Remington Design Rolling Block Rifle tomorrow.

The seller says it is 8mmx58r - but buys the Brass here in Washington State
at a hideous price (>$2 each !).

Is the Proper Brass for an 8mmx58(RD) Danish Krag cartridge ?

Might someone point me in the right direction to learn how to make my
own Brass for said Caliber ?

The seller says to reform 45-70 Brass with an 8mm Lebel Dies set.
I believe 45-70 is not Long Enough - so I ordered some *--* 45-90's.

I will have both of those components. Is that correct advice ?

DoctorBill
Last edited by DoctorBill on Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

aardq
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Re: 8mmx58r Brass Cases - how do I make them ?

Post by aardq »

Hi Dr. Bill,

While I don't have access to my library right now, once you get into the odd ball and obsolete cartridges you are at the mercy of the specialty dealers. Start by getting a copy of Frank Barnes book: "Cartridges of the World." A wealth of info including some loading data and cartridge dimensions. If the 8x58R is in the book, he may have case forming suggestions.

The 45-70 is 53mm long, so is probably too short for the 8x58R. You might need the 45-90, or the 45 basic case. They will be $2+ per case, but on the good side, you will be loading to around 20,000psi, and the brass will last forever! Compared to a "cheap 30-06, the 06 will end up costing a lot more once you factor in the cost of new brass every 5-6 reloads. the 8x58R should easily give you 20 loads per case, or even more. Since the pressure is so low, the case won't expand that much and it will need only minimal resizing, thus working the brass very little.

Good luck, and please let us know how it worked out.
Daniel

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DoctorBill
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Re: 8mmx58r Brass Cases - how do I make them ?

Post by DoctorBill »

.
.
Buffalo Arms in North Idaho sells reformed 45-70 Brass for the 8mmx58r
for around $2 per case. the 45-70 and 45-90 case go for about $1 each -
IF you can find them !

I was told by the seller to reform with 45-70's. He shot over 20 of them
w/o any problems.....(?), so I presume they work.

I, too, measured the 22 Brass cases that he sold to me with the Danish 8mm.
They are, indeed, 53.5mm long. I, too, wondered whether 45-90 would
do a better job - cut back to 58mm of course. All of this came to me just
yesterday.

I am assuming this Rifle was made to shoot the cartridge shown below:
Image
I added the English numbers next to the Metric mm dimensions...

However, if the 53.5mm reforms 'work', am I being too anal about all this ?

As you probably have found, Everything is now "Out of Stock" in the Reloading
World !

I will do a CeroSafe Cast of my 'new' Danish 8mm soon. I want to KNOW
exactly what that chamber really is. I have posted photos of the numbers on
the rifle. Perhaps there is someone out there who can enlighten me to a
greater extent concerning it's origins and specifications.....

This Swedish Rifle sure is a masterpiece of workmanship !
Those folk do GOOD WORK !

BTW - I ordered 50 *--* 45-90's to reform them to the 8mmx58r Danish Krag
cases myself. Wish me LUCK ! I've done it with 24 gauge MAGTECH to
.577-450 Martini Henry Brass (87 of them!).

Thank you for your reply !

DoctorBill

wlw-19958
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Re: 8mmx58r Brass Cases - how do I make them ?

Post by wlw-19958 »

Hi There,

2 dollars a case isn't all that exorbitant for cartridge cases
that have to be formed. I don't own a Swedish RB (yet) in
that caliber but someday I might.

I do have a couple of "Rollers" in 43 Spanish that I shoot and
I bought brass from "Track Of The Wolf" that cost $3.36 ea.
These have the thicker rim and have the correct headstamp
on them. I have used rounds made by Buffalo Arms and theirs
are re-formed from 45-110 brass.

So, $2 a case isn't bad. If you can re-form 45-90 without
problems, then by all means do so and save the money.

-Good Luck-
Webb

wlw-19958
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Re: 8mmx58r Brass Cases - how do I make them ?

Post by wlw-19958 »

Hi There,

I will offer one suggestion. If you are going to get
into making cartridges for obsolete calibers, you
should get a copy of The Home Guide to Cartridge
Conversions
by George C. Nonte, Jr.
It has a wealth
of information and covers many calibers (sadly, 8x58R
Krag isn't one of them). It will give you the basics and
techniques as well as what equipment you will need
(some of which I'm sure you already have).

Good Luck!
Webb

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DoctorBill
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Re: 8mmx58r Brass Cases - how do I make them ?

Post by DoctorBill »

.
.
I have been on a "Learning Curve" reforming Brass for this rifle.

Here is what I do....
.................Reforming 45-90 to 8mmx58r Danish Krag...................
This requires infinite PATIENCE......
Cut a 45-90 Brass Case to ~57.5mm on the Lathe. File flat and debur the EDGE on the lathe.
Debur with a Case reamer. Rub smooth with Steel wool.
Anneal (in the Rotating Water Bath if you have one) down about 5mm.
GO VERY VERY SLOWLY ! I use IMPERIAL SIZING DIE WAX ! Cannot be done w/o a GOOD die Lube ! Lube inside the top with a waxed Q-Tip.
Set the (LEE) 8mm Lebel Die high in the press so that the handle engages almost
straight out (important for feeling progress !). Have the Center Decapper Rod in place !
Very, Very slowly reform with the Case by starting the curve. Go maybe 4mm/min slow !
Anneal again and repeat until reaching the neck. Anneal again a few mm's lower (take 5 ml
water out of the Water Bath). Proceed lower with the die constantly watching for a crimp in the case. Lube and push thru the 45-70 Die OFTEN to keep the diameter. Use 45-70 Die to straighten crimps if they start ! Anneal lower and continue by lowering the Lebel Die ONE HALF turn at a time ! (Critical !)
Push the lever down so the piston goes up 0.5mm (yes !) at a time checking for crimping.
...........TAKES A LOT OF TIME - but it is worth it !
Once the shoulder is to the proper level (42mm) – run thru the 45-70 Die and anneal entire Case in ½ inch water bath.
Run it in a 7.62x54 Russian down to about 1 cm from the rim - to reduce Shoulder Diameter.
The latter is critical to the case fitting the chamber ! Check the fit in the 8mmx58r Swedish Rolling Block.
Expect Failures from case crimping. Starline is Thin Brass !
IF you go very slowly and run it thru the 45-70 die if a crimp starts to form – you
can get 100% from the above method. I DO NOW !

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Here is what you will get as you progress:
Image

Beware crumpling - use the 45-70 Die to reshape it out ! Too much crumple and it is all over !

Here is the rotating water bath I made for annealing. You can get the low rpm 12v motors
from e-bay and run them with 12v plugin adapters for electronic stuff (phones, chargers, etc).
I made a SPINDLE of Aluminum and Glued a round magnet to one end to hold the cans.

Image
Made Various cans to set water depth to protect the Brass below the water line.
Here is one of several variations..... I do a LOT of this reforming.
Image

This is just FYI - to help newbies at this reforming Brass thing. Hope it helps someone !

DoctorBill

marlinman93
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Re: 8mmx58r Brass Cases - how do I make them ?

Post by marlinman93 »

Nice tutorial. Making brass for obsolete calibers can be very frustrating on occasion, and rewarding also. Depending on the base case, and where it's headed to, it occasionally takes some lathe work on a few I make to get the base area above the rim smaller where sizing dies wont take it down.
I don't always enjoy the process, but if we're going to shoot these old guns, and not pay huge prices for preformed brass, it's a necessary evil.

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DoctorBill
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Re: 8mmx58r Brass Cases - how do I make them ?

Post by DoctorBill »

It is frustrating at first, but once you get in the groove, it becomes fun
and satisfying.

I still have about 14 45-90's to reform into 8mmx58r's.

One of several "Hobby Jobs" that keeps me sane in these Adolf Hitler 'Lock Downs".

DoctorBill

marlinman93
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Re: 8mmx58r Brass Cases - how do I make them ?

Post by marlinman93 »

Yes, if it weren't for my projects this year I'd have gone bonkers! Between reloading, forming brass, shooting, and building a '39 Chev coupe, I've kept very busy and sane.

wlw-19958
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Re: 8mmx58r Brass Cases - how do I make them ?

Post by wlw-19958 »

Hi There,

Very nice pictorial! Have you measured the thickness of the brass
at the neck? Reducing the neck that much will make the brass
thicker in that area. Normally, the brass at the neck is 8 to 10
thousandths thick. This may not be a problem if the chamber's
neck area is large enough to accept the cartridge when loaded
with the correct size bullets. Otherwise, the neck won't expand
to release the bullet when fired and chamber pressure will rise
possibly to dangerous levels.

This can be corrected by reaming the neck after sizing.

Also, reducing the neck that much in one pass is causing you extra
work and putting extra stress on the cartridge walls If you have the
dies (or have access to a lathe and can make them), you can reduce
the neck in stages and prevent the wrinkling of the cartridge walls.

Good Luck!
Webb
Last edited by wlw-19958 on Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DoctorBill
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Re: 8mmx58r Brass Cases - how do I make them ?

Post by DoctorBill »

.
.
wlw - the 45-90 brass is .010" thick at the start, 0.18" thick when reformed into the
8mmx58r cartridge. No worries - they reload and fire well in my rifle.

I have gone thru a bag of 50 Starline 45-90 Brass and am done.
Here is the result.....whew !

Image

The Baby Tiger (?) picture was there just to cover the stuff on the table
behind it....cute little bugger ! That thing in the center is LEAD cast into a SS Nut Cup
used as a mold. Makes Nice Ingots that stack side by side (one up/one down)
and are useful as weights for gluing or wood working, etc. I made a "Pb" Stamp
from a Bolt to indicate LEAD. Wheel Weight Lead is too hard to use a large stamp !

I now have about 75 assorted 8mmx58r Brass - mostly from 45-90's, but about 10
from 45-70 making for a shorter neck. They shoot fine, however !

The "process" became routine for me after about ten done. I have NOT caused
any case crimping or collapsing anymore. The first 4-5 case I screwed up were
due to me going way too fast - and not annealing enough.

But now I am done. Will never have to do this again ! HA !

DoctorBill

wlw-19958
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Re: 8mmx58r Brass Cases - how do I make them ?

Post by wlw-19958 »

Hi There,

Well, you may be alright. Judging by your drawing of cartridge dimensions,
the bullet is .323" in diameter and the mouth of the neck is .356". This would
imply that the thickness of the brass at the neck of the cartridge would be
.0165" (which is close to your .018").

If it were me, I would make a chamber cast and measure the neck diameter
of the chamber. That way I would know for sure what the clearance was and
whether there was any possible trouble.

Good Luck!
Webb

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DoctorBill
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Re: 8mmx58r Brass Cases - how do I make them ?

Post by DoctorBill »

.
.
I have already fired 13 rounds made the same way I just did mine, by the person I
bought the rifle from. i.e. the purchase included his attempts to reform the Brass.

Long story short, they work fine. He just had some made from 45-70's and 45-90's.
Kinda vague on their origin.

I tried 13 grains of Trail Boss as a starting load. Wimpy load - 8 inch drop at 50 yards.

Now have 20 loaded to 15 grains TB - but haven't been able to try that because of BAD
weather here where I live. The case can hold 20 grains of TB. If 15 grns gives decent performance, I'll leave it at that. I never liked 'hot' loads in anything. I don't hunt anything
except doz waskawie wabbits on paper.

No worries....except of dying of Boredom with these Political CoVid shutdowns.
You'd think it was Bubonic Plague the way our "Leaders" act....

We are being used, abused and betrayed by our Politicians.

DoctorBill

wlw-19958
Posts: 121
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Re: 8mmx58r Brass Cases - how do I make them ?

Post by wlw-19958 »

Hi There,

Well, you know what is bliss.

Take Care!
Webb

aardq
Posts: 237
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Re: 8mmx58r Brass Cases - how do I make them ?

Post by aardq »

This is a very interesting, and an educational thread. Having read the whole thread, my one comment now is simply, buy the cases already reformed! Yes, they do cost a few dollars, but I know what I value my labor at, and making these cases is very time consuming, not to mention the need for an annealing device of some kind. I don't need any more hobbies, so I'd spend the money and buy 100 cases!

Good luck on what ever you do, and, please give us an update with range results.

Daniel

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