Remington & Sons ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT Oct 21 1873 SN 2669

Topics related to Pre - 1898 Remington Pistols
Rexon
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:00 am

Remington & Sons ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT Oct 21 1873 SN 2669

Post by Rexon »

My father in law gave me a toy gun, or so he called it a few years back.

Had a bit of time to take a look at it, and found the following stamped on the top of the barrel:

Remington & Sons, ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT, Oct 21 1873.

The serial number under the dark wooden grip is 2669. This is stamped twice, and appears to be on two pieces of metal which establish its frame. Overall the piece has 50% of its original nickel finish ( I assume), and very little rust. Chamber rotates with the hammer, and appears that it may be in firing condition. Guessing its a low .30 caliber or .32.

Any help would be appreciate, I'd even like to have it restored if I could get the proper guidance with it, and a trustworthy restorer.

Can anyone help me out with the value for insurance purposes? and or figuring out what it is?
ChuckD
Posts: 191
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:01 pm
Location: Northern IL

Re: Remington & Sons ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT Oct 21 1873 SN 2669

Post by ChuckD »

Rexon,

If your Smoot has a screw in the front of the ejector rod housing,
which holds the rod in its channel, then you have a first model and it would be
.30 RF cal.
However. if the ejector rod is held in by a sideways pin, (through the housing),
then it is a 2nd model. The second model will be found in .30 or .32 RF.
If the rear of the cylinder is covered with a rotating disc, you would have what
is refered to as a 1st model revolving recoil shieled, which is rarer and worth more.
As stated in many other posts, we can't give values due to so many variables.
Check on gunbroker or antiquearms to see what similar ones are listed at.
Rexon
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:00 am

Re: Remington & Sons ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT Oct 21 1873 SN

Post by Rexon »

Chuck,

Thanks for the help earlier.. I finally got around to getting a few images of it, and have many more questions about it. Let me know if these help at all.

Not really looking for value, more or less would like to document it as an heirloom type thing for future generations of the family.

The spring, and front screw on the ejector rod don't look quite right,, whats the chance this was a replica?

I've seen images of smooth or ribed triggers, this one is smooth, also i've seen images of a ribbed cyclinder guard, this one doesnt have that.
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CALIBRE44
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Remington & Sons ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT Oct 21 1873 SN

Post by CALIBRE44 »

Based on the picture it appears you have a Smoot first model with fixed recoil shield, of which approx 3023 were made starting with #1. So this is a very late 1st model. The early model, revolving shield, covers serial numbers 1 to about 650, balance like yours with a fixed recoil shield covers the remaining number produced. (gessing about 1885) It appears all were 30 rf cal. The Walnut grips are a little rare, as approx 12% to 20% were wood (walnut or rosewood). They also produced a second model (approx 2000) with minor changes, but chambered for both 30rf and 32rf. Now your piece, the front half moon sight is missing and the ejector spring should be inside the ejector housing, not on the outside. Your piece does have collectors value, best chedk Gunbrokers for simular condition gun...
john e.
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Remington & Sons ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT Oct 21 1873 SN

Post by john e. »

Hello all. I'm new to this group, and I have some interest in these little smoot's patent revolvers. Calibre44, do I understand you correctly that there were roughly 3000 1st models and only about 2000 2nd models ever made? Do the serials start over again with the 2nd models?

I have four 2nd models, with numbers duplicated across the frame joint under the left grip panel. These numbers range from 1x to 209x. If these are the serials, then Remington must have started over again in numbering the 2nd models. Is there anyone documenting the known serial ranges for 1st and 2nd models, and do you know the rough dates of production for these? Many thanks!
John
CALIBRE44
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Remington & Sons ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT Oct 21 1873 SN

Post by CALIBRE44 »

Hi John: Yes the estimated production is as you stated. All rf caliber. Highest serial number recorded is 2976 for #1 and 2102 for #2..Rarest are factory blue models (about 2%, where the nickel guns ran about 66%) as most were nickel plated and/or engraved and plated..Anounced sale date of 1st model was 1876 and for 2nd model 1878. Both models started with serial number 1, so you could have 2 guns with the same serial number as I have..To have a matching gun the numbers on the two frame pieces under the grip should match. Your 3 digit gun would have been early and probably 1878. They continued producing them until about 1888. If you need additional info feel free to ask again...Jim
Rexon
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:00 am

Re: Remington & Sons ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT Oct 21 1873 SN

Post by Rexon »

Thanks for the great information guys! Any recommendations for keeping it clean / oiled.. I've heard some recomendations, just to keep it dry, but others say its ok to lightly oil and keep it dry and temperate...

BTW,, are you all members of the rem society.. what does membership entail.?
john e.
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Remington & Sons ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT Oct 21 1873 SN

Post by john e. »

Calibre44, thank you very much for your detailed input on smoot's patent #1 and #2 - I'm learning a lot! I don't have a 3-digit #2, but I do have one with a 2-digit serial # in the teens - it's clear from what you've said that this one would have been made in 1878. My highest serial smoot's #2 is within 5 digits of the highest known #2102 you mentioned.

Are you collecting data on these, or Is there anyone else currently collecting data on these? What reference are you using, may I ask?

What remains to make complete sense to me from your information is that it appears we have roughly 3000 1st models made over 2 years (roughly from 1876 to 1878), but then only another 2000 2nd models made over the next 10 years (1878 to 1888). That's one heck of a slow-down in production between the 1st and 2nd models.
****************
Rexon, I would never keep any antique gun dry. All steels are actually porous, even when highly polished. Steels with some corrosion are even more porous. I would recommend rubbing any good gun lube or even automotive grease into the gun's surface before leaving it dry.

I am not a member of RSA, but a Remington neophyte looking to learn some things. I am a member of other antique gun groups, however, and I use "Renaissance Wax" and "Old West Snake Oil" to protect antique guns from general handling. For longer-term storage and guns with spots of corrosion, I recommend rubbing in a thin film of marine bearing grease - the stuff really stays put and will not let you down over years of storage.
CALIBRE44
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Remington & Sons ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT Oct 21 1873 SN

Post by CALIBRE44 »

HI John; Both model #1 and #2 were sold concurrently. Not sure when they stopped the #1 and only made the #2. My opinion only: They made the majority of #2 in 32rf and may have continued the model #1 in 30rf, which was very popular at the time and/or Remington is known for making guns in batches and had a large stock of finished #1's prior to the introduction of the model #2. Who really knows as remington records are not as complete as say Colt.. Jim
john e.
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Remington & Sons ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT Oct 21 1873 SN

Post by john e. »

Jim , that's very helpful information..thank you! I know a lot more about these than I ever did before, and it does look like my two best examples are within 15 serials of the first, and within 5 serials of the last #2s (known to be) produced. I still would like to know what book(s) you are using, or if you've been doing your own research on these. Thank you.
John
CALIBRE44
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Remington & Sons ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT Oct 21 1873 SN

Post by CALIBRE44 »

JOHN; The best and most accurate book is " A Study of Remington's Smoot Patent & Number Four Revolvers" by H.Parker, O. Parker and J Reisch..Geeeesh what a mouth full..If you can't find it, I'll give you the publisher...Jim
admin
Site Admin
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Re: Remington & Sons ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT Oct 21 1873 SN

Post by admin »

In the books section of the site: http://www.remingtonsociety.com/rsa/books/DrParker
john e.
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Remington & Sons ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT Oct 21 1873 SN

Post by john e. »

Thank you kindly, gentlemen. I see that this is a fairly recent (2003) publication and lists at a very reasonable price!
Best,
John
watersfam
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Re: Remington & Sons ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT Oct 21 1873 SN 2669

Post by watersfam »

I recently acquired two model 2 Remington Smoots from different sellers. One was supposed to be a .30 and the other a .32. Problem is both appear to be the same exact caliber. Both cylinders take both a .32 and .30 short rf. My .30 short RF cartridges (I only have 2), when inserted in the barrel, slide in all the way to the rim edge. I have a box of .32 short RF's and they fit as expected for that caliber- the lead bullet wedges into barrel but not easily and the shell sticks outside. I am assuming that both are .32 short rf pistols. Are there any tables anywhere that tell which serial numbers should be what caliber? On mine, one is in the 400's the other is in the 1500's
billt
Posts: 258
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 6:42 pm

Re: Remington & Sons ILION NY Pat: W.S SMOOT Oct 21 1873 SN 2669

Post by billt »

Hello Watersfam,
To my knowledge there are no tables showing the caliber of No. 2 Smoot Revolvers by serial number. There were approximately 2200 made and the two calibers were scattered throughout the serial number range. There seems to have been more 32 calibers than 30 calibers made. I suggest you get a set of calipers and measure the diameter of the cylinder holes. The only book I know of devoted to Smoot Revolvers is A study of Remington’s Smoot Patent & Number Four Revolvers by Dr. Harry Parker etal.

Bill
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