Remington UMC Production Date

[bgilmo]

My uncle passed away and left me his Remington UMC 45. He was an Officer in WW2. It is in excellent condition and may have been issued after he was freed from a German POW camp. Can anyone provide me any information about its history (when it was made, how many were manufactured, etc). It is marked US Government Property # 583442. I will be getting the original Billl of Sale this fall. Thanks for your time and consideration. Bob

[DavidFagan]

Serial no in the million or 2 million range?

[bgilmo]

David:

Thanks for the note back. The serial number is 583442.

Best regards

Bob

[DavidFagan]

Well then I'm confused, that's not a Remington serial nor even a A1, which I would expect for a WWII gun.
That serial is for a Colt 1911 from 1919 with a Remington Slide?

Is it a 1911 or a 1911A1?
Is the back of the frame grip flat like the grips or rounded a bit? That's like the only thing I can think of to ask without having both in hand. The front site is different, the trigger, by the mag release, and the grip safety.

[bgilmo]

David:

On the left side of the slide it has "Mfg by Remington and a circle with Remington UMC inside. On the right side of the slide it says Model of 1911 and under that it says US Army Caliber 45. On the main body of the gun on the right side it has US Property and the serial number is under that.

The frame in back of the hand grips is rounded and not flat. The front sight is round from front to back (about 1/8 inch high and 3/8's front to back}.

Maybe it is a Colt frame with a Remington slide.

Would it have been issued during/after WW2 like that?

Hope that helps.

Bob

[DavidFagan]

Well you've about depleted all I know about 1911's, I admit it's not much...

That definitely sounds like a 1911A1 with a Remington Slide, but who made the frame?
With that serial I don't think it's a Colt, Remington, Ithaca, Singer, Union Switch and Signal, or Springfield Armory.
I just fixed a 1911A1 made in Argentina for someone don't remember the name or serial on it.
It had beautiful pink nail polish on the sights

[bgilmo]

David:

Thanks again for your feedback.

There are some stampings on the frame. On the left side of the trigger guard in the bottom right by the clip release there is the number 37. Then above the clip release there is a number 7 with a bar above it. Above the bar is something else but I cannot make it out. All of the other stampings are realy clear.....this part is faint.

On the slide.....at the rear.....just above the hammer and clearly visible if you look down the sights.....there is the letter E. On the very bottom of the right grip the letter M is stamped. I can't see any other markings.

Does any of this mean anything?

If this was an arsenal rebuild would it have been been re-issued during or after WW2?

Anyone else out there have anything to offer?

I appreciate it.

Bob

[ChuckD]

Bob,
From the information given, I believe you have an arsenal rework. You don't say the type of finish (blue or parkerized). If parkerized it definatly is refinished. Original finish was blue. From the information I have your serial number makes it a Colt frame produced in 1919. Does the serial number start with "No." or "No" with a line under the o?
Since, the 1911 had a straight rear grip frame, not the 1911 A1 rounded type. I suspect it was reworked some time after the 1930's. Many of these 1911's were reworked by the Government as well as gun smiths. I'm no expert on 1911's, But I believe this information is correct.

ChuckD

[bgilmo]

HI ChuckD:

Thanks for the note back. All of you guys who reply are really great!!!!!

First off the serial number is preceeded with a No and the o does have an underline. The color of the whole gun is most likely blue but it looks more black. The color is very uniform except for a small (1/8 inch) wear band on the rear of the trigger (each side) and also where the slide goes back into the frame at the barrel end. And the hand grip part of the frame is rounded in both the front and the back.....it fits the hand very nicely. The grips are dark wood (walnut?) and have the 3/4 diamonds where each of the four screws are that hold them on. The right grip has a letter M on the very bottom. It has the tan/cowhide leather holster, too.

If this were an arsenal rework would it have those markings on it? In a prior note I posted all of the markings I could find.

From what I have learned from you guys is that it was probably re-worked sometime after WWl and may have been re-issued during WW2. As mentioned earlier my uncle was an Infantry Captain at the Bulge and was captured and held POW after they entered Germany. Upon release at the end of the war he came back to the US and served as an Administrator helping discharge other veterans. He was an attorney and judge and before he died in 1985 he requested that I receive this 45. My aunt, who also served, passed away two weeks ago.

I am 65 now and am trying to document everything for the kids and grandkids. And I do appreicate all the time and consideration you guys are giving. My father died the morning of D-Day (a month before I was born). He was in the 101st Airborne. I am fortunate enought to have an early M1A1 folding stock carbine like my father possibly carried and all of its parts are documented to be original to its 1942 manufacturer. Now knowing as much about my uncles 45 as possible is part of knowing "from where we have come".

Thanks again for your information. If anything else comes to mind drop me another note.

Best regards

Bob

[DavidFagan]

See I knew someone would straighten me out. I didn't know you could "rework" a 1911 frame into a 1911A1 that's why I didn't think it was a Colt. The magazine release, grip safety, and front sight should be different as well but unless you have both frames in your hand...

[ChuckD]

Bob,

Based on the fact that the finish is blue and there aren't any government inspectors marks
visible, I believe it was refinished by a gunsmith, not the military.
There are so many variations of the size and position of the markings, and the shape of different parts by the several manufactures, that a whole book has been published on the subject.
North Cape Publications has the book, "The Model 1911 and 1911A1 Military and Commercial Pistols" by Joe Poyer. It has all of the information you could want on the 1911's. But there
is still the question of who did the modification on yours.
I hope this helps.

ChuckD

[bgilmo]

Hi ChuckD:

There is a chance my uncle might have purchased this sometime after the war. I always believed that was not the case but then again......who knows. My cousin said she thought there was a bill of sale or other documents somewhere in the house and she expects to go through everything by early fall. Maybe that will provide some answers. (He was an attorney so there are a lot of papers to go through.)

I stopped by our local gun dealer and he had a couple that looked just like this one. One had a 4 digit serial number.....no doubt a very early one. He asked me to bring it in and he would take a look at it. I need to get it registered anyhow so maybe next week I can get that done.

Thanks again for your help and hopefully someday I can return the favor.

Best regards

Bob