1858 Navy Revolver

Sign the guestbook
Post Reply
Velocette
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:07 pm

1858 Navy Revolver

Post by Velocette »

HI - I'm a 'newby' here so, please cut me some slack where needed.

I have for quite some time been the owner of an 1858 .36 cal Navy revolver. The firearm is in excellent condition; does not even have 'drag' marks on the cylinder from the locking bolt.

I am asking if anyone can give me some info on dating & proof marks etc. Try as I may I have not been able to do this.

:roll: The serial number of the gun is:4063

I have ordered a book: Remington Army and Navy Revolvers 1861-1888 for $100 AUS but am thinking it may take some time to arrive.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Bill
Kingaroy Australia
billt
Posts: 258
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 6:42 pm

Re: 1858 Navy Revolver

Post by billt »

Hi Bill,
Remington produced three Navy (.36caliber) size revolvers during the Civil War just like they produced three Army (.44 caliber) size revolvers. They are in the order manufactured, the Beals, the Elliot or “Old Model” and the New Model. The serial numbers started with the Beals and continued through the New Model production. A total of 14,500 Beals Navy revolvers were manufactured, so by the serial number on your revolver it should be a Beals Model. The Beals Navy revolvers were the first ones to be purchased by the Ordinance Department starting in 1861. In addition to purchasing revolvers from Remington the Ordnance Depart also purchased revolvers on the open market from commercial arms dealers. A total of 4,586 Beals revolvers were purchased from the commercial arms dealers so yours could possibly one of them. Looking at the list of Beals Navy revolvers purchased from commercial dealers in Don Ware’s book, the 4000th revolver the Ordnance Department purchased was in January 1862 so it is likely yours was manufactured around that time or sooner.
As far as I know the Beals Navy revolvers were not inspected so there are no inspection letters or cartouches.

Bill
aardq
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Re: 1858 Navy Revolver

Post by aardq »

Hi Bill,

Welcome to the RSA forums. To add to Bill T's answer, in Ware's book he give approximate manufacture dates by month and year. According to this list, your 4063 was made in October, 1862.

Ware's book is "The Bible" for Remington Army and Navy revolvers, and is well worth the price.

Enjoy your pistol,
Daniel
Velocette
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:07 pm

Re: 1858 Navy Revolver

Post by Velocette »

Many thanks Daniel & Bill
I have ordered Don Ware's book; should be here in a few weeks. It is good to have some answers.
Will see if I can up-load some photos but, here is some more info anyway.

The front sight is brass & of the rounded blade style.
The loading latch is 1 1/4 from the muzzle.
There are exposed threads on the barrel where it screws into the frame.
The only numbers I can find are on the rear of the cylinder 'W' & rear of LHS trigger guard 'Q'.
There are safety slots milled between each nipple on the cylinder.
Barrel length is 6 1/2"
Barrel markings: Patent Sept 14 1858
E Reminton & Sons Ilion New York USA
New-Model
The things I have noted seem to contradict what should/should not be found on the gun? I appreciate that over the years some things could have been changed, though, judging by the condition on the revolver, it is hard to imagine that anything was badly worn by usage.

Thanks again

Bill
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
billt
Posts: 258
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 6:42 pm

Re: 1858 Navy Revolver

Post by billt »

Hi Bill,
From the picture and updated information in your last post you have a single action Belt revolver. It was also made in.36 caliber but had a six and one half inch barrel rather than the seven and three eighth inch barrel the Navy revolver has. It is a scaled down version of the Navy revolver. The Army model has an eight inch barrel, the Navy model a seven and three eighth inch barrel and the belt model has a six and one half inch barrel.The new model Army and Navy revolvers have a pinched front sight while the Belt model has a blade front sight. All three of these models have exposed barrel threads and all three have the same three line barrel address. Remington also made the Belt model in double action percussion and both models were converted to .38 rimfire caliber later in production.
Unfortunately you will not find any information in Don Wares book on belt models but you will find a lot of information on Army and Navy revolvers.

Bill
aardq
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Re: 1858 Navy Revolver

Post by aardq »

Hi Bill,

RSA member James Skelly has been conducting a survey of the belt models for several years.

Here’s a little more info on the Belt Models. They were made from 1863 to 1886, first as percussion models, and starting in 1873, as cartridge models. Remington catalogs called both the SA, and the DA, “Belt Revolvers.” Some modern collectors call the DA pistols, “Rider Model” or “Ryder Belt Models.” The DA and the SA both were designed by Joseph Ryder, but only the DA had, “Ryder’s patent,” stamped on the barrels.

James' survey of the Belt Models shows a few serials above 10,000. Of 267 reported serials, 57% are DA, while 42% are SA. The DA models were not listed in the 1877 or later Rem catalogs. The survey sample is too small to make any conclusions as yet.
It’s interesting to note that while the 77, and 80 catalogs list only the SA, the illustration is a DA model.

Belt Models had both fluted cylinders (early) and round cylinders (later). Only 3 SA guns have fluted cylinders. Three front sights were used. Remington never threw out anything, so the sights are used in no real order order, but they should have been: the silver cone, the “pinched,” and a blade. There are also three different barrel markings, the first in two lines, and the other two are three lines, one with two patent dates.

Daniel
Velocette
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:07 pm

Re: 1858 Navy Revolver

Post by Velocette »

once again - Thankyou Daniel & Bill; have learnt something else today. I had never heard of the 'belt model'.


Bill
Velocette
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:07 pm

Re: 1858 Navy Revolver

Post by Velocette »

Daniel/Bill - One last attempt at info if that's ok.

Does this mean that the build date is as stated in your initial reply: ie 1862? Also, any ideas of where it would have been allocated: military or commercial/private; am thinking what was the point?

Am also wondering why they had yet another variant

As stated, I have ordered 'the bible' & look forward to learning some more about these weapons. Always did think that they were a superior design compared to having the barrel held in position (?) by a wedge!

I appreciate your efforts


Bill
Qld. Australia
aardq
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Re: 1858 Navy Revolver

Post by aardq »

Hi Bill,

The manufactured date given was based on the New Model Navy revolvers. There is no info on production dates for the Belt Models. Production started in mid to late 1863, and none are know to have been bought by the US for military use, so we have no serial lists for the Belt Models as we do for the Army and Navy Models.

It is very possible, and even probable that Belt Models were bought by individual soldiers, but there are no records of that. It is believed that Remington records were destroyed about the turn of the 20th century when Remington Arms Co. Stopped paying for the storage space in NY city which held many records of E. Remington & Sons.

Why another variant? Just look at the number of different pocket pistols made by both Remington and the C company. They made whatever they thought would sell. Sometimes they were right, and sometimes only a thousand or so of a design were made. All companies did this hoping to make a model that the public would buy in large numbers. They still do this as shown by the large number of models made by current gun companies.

The Belt Models were smaller and lighter than the Navy Models, yet still a full power .36 cal pistol, which made them desirable. Remember that in those days, pockets in men’s pants, and coats were much larger than today. You could easily carry a Belt model in your coat pocket, or even in your front pants pocket.

Don Ware’s book is “the Bible” on Remington Army and Navy Revolvers, and there is a little info on the Belt Models in the book, but not very much info. The Belt models are still relatively unknown. There are many people that believe that only 2,500 were made. Or is it 2,500 of each version? Or is it 5,000 made, or 5,000 of each version? As shown by the sequential serial numbers, just over 10,000 total were made, but the sample size is too small, 2.7%, to reach any conclusions.

It is probably that Belt Models were exported to other countries, including Australia, but again, we just don’t know.

Daniel
Velocette
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:07 pm

Re: 1858 Navy Revolver

Post by Velocette »

OK Daniel - I will rest with that now.

The belt model was something out of 'left field' for me; had no knowledge of it what-so-ever.

I will scour Don Ware's book for anything else that may be available, though it does not sound too promising. Damn shame about the lost records!

I have always wanted an original Remington 1858 but, with Australia's restrictive firearms laws, it is very difficult to own any sort of firearm. Can I give you a CRA ZY example ....

Owning of firearms in general is very difficult & governed by tough laws. In two states, Tasmania & Queensland (well, at least Qld anyway) , it is ok to own an original & fully functional 1858 without any form of licencing at all, but NOT a modern copy, ie; a Uberti. This is from a law that says it is ok to own a gun if it is made before 1900 & that has no commercially available ammunition. Never mind that powder, caps & projectiles are available. Where is the sense in that??
Anyway, I shan't complain about this & consider myself very fortunate to own the gun.
I bought the Remington several years from Australian Arms Auction for $500; it was listed as unsold so, I made an enquiry after the auction & did the deal. They are based in Victoria & have two auctions yearly. Last time I looked, it was possible to view listings from past auctions & prices realised. I was thinking that you & other members may find it interesting.

That's all from me. Thank you for all your help


Wishing you all the very best

Bill
aardq
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Re: 1858 Navy Revolver

Post by aardq »

Hello again,

Has Don Ware's book arrived yet? Please let us know what you think after you've had a chance to look through it. The book is very detailed about the process of Government contracts, and inspections, and a lot of details about the design, and design changes. It is a very informative book. I hope that you enjoy it and learn a lot from it.

Daniel
Post Reply