Model 1858 Navy Identification

[j_thomas]

Hi all,

Just picked up what appears to be an authentic 1858 Remington Navy. I'm certainly new and inexperienced at these older revolvers. It was marketed as a 1858 Beals Navy Factory Conversion but after looking into it, I have some hesitation on whether it is an old or new model (which would not be a Beals?). The serial number (28713) exists on the underside of the barrel, under the grips, and on the trigger guard. An additional number stamp (629) also exists in those same locations. Maybe this is a number stamp from when it was factory converted? There is also an 'R' stamped under the grips, which I've learned may be an inspection stamp. The only other identifiable markings are the last few characters from the barrel stamp 'ORK. U.S.A.' presumably the last three letters of 'New York'. As seen from the photos, it has been converted to .38 CF and the barrel is exactly 7.5" leading me to believe it is indeed a Navy. The barrel threads are visible which would lead me to believe it is a new model, since as far as I could tell (from my limited research), none of the original Beals had barrel threads exposed. What confuses me though, is that the cylinder pin is located behind the loading lever, which I thought was only characteristic of the old model Beals. I thought once they started producing the new models with the barrel threads exposed, they also cut out the cylinder pin so that it could be removed without moving the loading lever.

Any help on the identification and/or history of this gun would be greatly appreciated! Photos are attached.

Thank You!

[aardq]

Hi J,

You are 100% correct in all your assumptions. Serial 28713 is a New Model Navy, made in July, 1864, but I suspect that the serial is actually 23713, which means that it was made in Oct 1863. It is one of 1010 various Remington Navy models that were sent back to Remington for conversion to .38 center fire in 1875. The Navy also had some of their Colt Navy Model revolvers converted to .38cf.

These pistols were polished and re-blued, so a lot of the markings were polished off.

You are also correct about the cylinder pin location, and that I can't explain. It has to be a fluke, but by mid-1864 all the bugs should have been worked out of the New Model production. Here is my guess (99% guess). During production an Old Model frame (only one??) was scooped out of the bottom of a parts bin. It was already cut for the cylinder pin, so it was machined to New Model specs exposing the barrel threads, and assembled. This is more likely if the serial is 23, not 23, because it's more probable that some Old Model frames were around in 63, than in 64.

Another guess is that if it was only one frame it might have been scrapped, so maybe there were several more Old Model frames that were found.

The "629" indicated that it was the 629th of the 1020 pistols converted.

What I don't understand is what happened to the ejector housing and the ejector. The loading lever has the cutout for the tab at the end of the ejector, but there is no ejector housing and ejector. Can you tell if there is any trace of a housing attached to the right side of the frame.

By the way, there never were any 1858 Remingtons. That's just a designation collectors and dealers put on Remingtons a century ago, because of the patent date.

There ya have it, facts and guesses all bundled together.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving,
Daniel

[aardq]

PS, If you have Don Ware's book on Remington Army and Navy revolvers, examples of this conversion are shown on pages 303-305.

Daniel

[Patbar]

Hi J_thomas,

I need to say that "1858 Remington Navy" doesn't designate a particular gun. This "1858" relates to the patent granted to Forsythe Beals on September 14, 1858, which concerned the device by which the cylinder pin was maintained in place by the loading lever.

Thereafter, this patent date was marked first on the 3rd model Remington-Beals Pocket revolver and then on all Remington percussion revolvers that followed (Beals Navy and Army, 1861 Navy and Army, 1863 New Model Navy and Army, New Model Belt, Police and Pocket Revolver.

So, your revolver is in fact a "1863 Remington Navy" as this model was first produced then.

[j_thomas]

Hi J,

You are 100% correct in all your assumptions. Serial 28713 is a New Model Navy, made in July, 1864, but I suspect that the serial is actually 23713, which means that it was made in Oct 1863. It is one of 1010 various Remington Navy models that were sent back to Remington for conversion to .38 center fire in 1875. The Navy also had some of their Colt Navy Model revolvers converted to .38cf.

These pistols were polished and re-blued, so a lot of the markings were polished off.

You are also correct about the cylinder pin location, and that I can't explain. It has to be a fluke, but by mid-1864 all the bugs should have been worked out of the New Model production. Here is my guess (99% guess). During production an Old Model frame (only one??) was scooped out of the bottom of a parts bin. It was already cut for the cylinder pin, so it was machined to New Model specs exposing the barrel threads, and assembled. This is more likely if the serial is 23, not 23, because it's more probable that some Old Model frames were around in 63, than in 64.

Another guess is that if it was only one frame it might have been scrapped, so maybe there were several more Old Model frames that were found.

The "629" indicated that it was the 629th of the 1020 pistols converted.

What I don't understand is what happened to the ejector housing and the ejector. The loading lever has the cutout for the tab at the end of the ejector, but there is no ejector housing and ejector. Can you tell if there is any trace of a housing attached to the right side of the frame.

By the way, there never were any 1858 Remingtons. That's just a designation collectors and dealers put on Remingtons a century ago, because of the patent date.

There ya have it, facts and guesses all bundled together.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving,
Daniel

Thanks Daniel!

Yes, it was hard to make out if the second digit of the serial number was an 8 or a 3. No trace of any ejector or housing on the right side. There appears to be a groove in the right side that is not present on the left side but no evidence of anything ever seated in there. Almost like they were going to put something there (hence the notch cut in the loading lever) but then they never installed it? Would help to see one with the ejector present to compare, but I haven't found any good photos yet.

thanks again for all the information!

Happy Thanksgiving.

[j_thomas]

Hi J_thomas,

I need to say that "1858 Remington Navy" doesn't designate a particular gun. This "1858" relates to the patent granted to Forsythe Beals on September 14, 1858, which concerned the device by which the cylinder pin was maintained in place by the loading lever.

Thereafter, this patent date was marked first on the 3rd model Remington-Beals Pocket revolver and then on all Remington percussion revolvers that followed (Beals Navy and Army, 1861 Navy and Army, 1863 New Model Navy and Army, New Model Belt, Police and Pocket Revolver.

So, your revolver is in fact a "1863 Remington Navy" as this model was first produced then.

Hi Patbar,

Thanks for that info. I just figured they were commonly referred to as '1858s' despite being manufactured in subsequent years.

Thanks,
J

[aardq]

Patbar is mostly in error on the names. When the Beals Models were introduced, they were simply the Army, and Navy revolvers. The 1861 models were the "Improved" Army, and "Improved" Navy Models. The New Models were called just that, "New Model Army" and "New Model Navy."

For the most part, Remington didn't designate their models by the year of introduction. The names, "Beals," "Old Model," and "Elliot Model." are terms chosen by collectors. You do in fact have a New Model Navy.
Daniel

[Patbar]

Yes, aardq, I know that I used the names given by collectors, and especially those used by Norm Flayderman because these are the names that most people know. My point was simply saying that a "1858 Remington" doesn't point to any particular Remington revolver.

In France, many people buy Italian made replicas of Remington New Model Army which are simply named 1858 Remington by the makers. Those also sell "Remington New Model Navies" which have in fact the size of the Remington New Model Belt, except that they don't bother to make the frame screws enter from the right side.

[aardq]

Hi Patbar,

You also made the point of calling two models, "1861 Navy and Army, 1863 New Model Navy and Army," and I'm just pointing out that Remington never used those terms, and today, while the term, "1861 Army, and Navy are used by collectors, no one uses, "1863 New Model Navy and Army," They just use New Model Army or Navy. Most people don't even know that there are three different types, everything is just called an 1858 Remington.

It must be pointed out, that when it involves Remingtons, both Flayderman's, and the Blue Book have errors.

The Modern repros are copies of the New Models.

Daniel

[karu]

Hi Folks,
I hope you're doing well!
Sorry but the 1861 Navy & Army models did not have Beals's Patent on barrel.
And his name has disappeared after that.. Only to mention the patent date.

Nice revolver anyway J_Thomas!
I like the shark fin look like of the front sight.

karu