1868 Remington revolver?

[Oran Edward]

I have a friend in Germany that has a five shot cylinder on an 1858 frame. When the rimfire ammo dried up someone made nipples for it to return to a cap and ball. The S/N is 123023. Can anyone enlighten us as to any and all information available?

[Patbar]

If it's a five shot cylinder, it could be a Police Model. But the frame is much smaller than the one of the Army or Navy Model, and the screws enter the frame from the right side instead of the left side as on the other two models.

A photo of the gun would surely help !

[Oran Edward]

Looks like a full size pistol to me. But, I know nothing about these.

[Patbar]

There is definitely something very wrong on this revolver, as one of the screws enter the frame from the left and the other from the right, and this has never existed on any Remington. And if the gun is really full size, then the cylinder is not of Remington origin as only the Police and the Pocket (with a frame much smaller than the previous) had 5 chambers.

[aardq]

Hi Oran,

That is a New Model Army, made in Dec of 1864, which has been converted. If the hammer doesn't have a firing pin, it was for a rim fire cartridge. Don Ware's book covers this conversion in detail. In 1868-69, Remington converted 4,540 New Model Army revolvers to .46 rim fire, in a deal with S&W, for Cincinnati, OH gun dealer, Benjamin Kittredge. Remington converted the guns, S&W was paid $1.25 for each gun converted, and Kittredge got 3,391 of the guns. Most of these conversions have a one line marking, "patented April 3d 1855," but not all have the marking. if so, then it is one of the Kittredge conversions.

This conversion allowed the use of an original percussion cylinder since the hammer wasn't altered by adding a firing pin. Most of these guns came with both a percussion, and a conversion cylinder so that it was still usable if no cartridges were available. If you have an original 44 cylinder, it should fit into this revolver.

Both the trigger screw and the hammer screw enter from the left side, but the hammer screw appears to be a replacement.

The method of converting back to percussion is interesting, and was probably done in Europe where the .46rf cartridges could have been hard to find.

This is an interesting pistol.

Daniel

[Oran Edward]

Thank you both for the replies.

Patbar - You may be correct about the size. I have only seen the same pictures that you have.

Daniel - From further discussion with the owner it looks like the “nipples” were for looks only. Once he soaked the cylinder the “nipples” came out. They were press fit. I cannot imagine someone shooting it like that.

Thanks again

[Patbar]

Hi Oran,

That is a New Model Army, made in Dec of 1864, which has been converted. If the hammer doesn't have a firing pin, it was for a rim fire cartridge. Don Ware's book covers this conversion in detail. In 1868-69, Remington converted 4,540 New Model Army revolvers to .46 rim fire, in a deal with S&W, for Cincinnati, OH gun dealer, Benjamin Kittredge. Remington converted the guns, S&W was paid $1.25 for each gun converted, and Kittredge got 3,391 of the guns. Most of these conversions have a one line marking, "patented April 3d 1855," but not all have the marking. if so, then it is one of the Kittredge conversions.

This conversion allowed the use of an original percussion cylinder since the hammer wasn't altered by adding a firing pin. Most of these guns came with both a percussion, and a conversion cylinder so that it was still usable if no cartridges were available. If you have an original 44 cylinder, it should fit into this revolver.

Both the trigger screw and the hammer screw enter from the left side, but the hammer screw appears to be a replacement.

The method of converting back to percussion is interesting, and was probably done in Europe where the .46rf cartridges could have been hard to find.

This is an interesting pistol.

Daniel

Daniel, what about the 5 shot cylinder and the screws entering the frame one from the right and the other from the left ??? There is something wrong here !

[Oran Edward]

Patbar

I believe if you look closely on a blown up picture, both screws enter from the left. They are both replacements.

As for the large frame and 5 shot cylinder, I have no idea about this issue. That is why I am asking about this revolver.

He has asked if anyone knows about this “97” stamping on the left side of the frame? The rest of the attached pictures are just for eye candy. If any of the other pictures help with identification, please let me know.

[aardq]

Hi Oran & Patbar,

I'm sorry you were confused. I wasn't 100% clear in my post about the conversion. The .46rf conversion for Kittredge was to a 5-shot. Thus a new cylinder had to be used. The .46rf was a shortened .46rf that was used in the Remington, split breech carbine. In 1866 there weren't many pistol caliber, cartridge guns, so Remington took the fast and easy way be shortening a cartridge that they already made. It is covered in Don Ware's book. This is the first percussion revolver that was commercially converted to cartridge use.

I have no idea what the "97" on the frame could be. An ID number of some kind, but for what, or who?

Daniel

[Oran Edward]

Daniel

So a large frame five shot is not unheard of? And are you saying that the cap and ball version was six shot? But, when they made the conversion to rimfire, they went with a 5 shot? I believe that this was done with other conversions because of the rims interferring with one another. Or, as Colt did, bring out a cartridge with very little rim, a la 44 colt and 45 colt.

[aardq]

Hi Oran,

Yes, there were 5-shot conversions to the 46rf cartridge. The reason was simple, the diameter of the 46rf was too large to use the original cylinder, because the cylinder walls were too thin. To use the 46rf safely the cylinder walls had to be thicker, and to fit into the frame that meant a 5-shot.

The Kittredge conversion was the first by any manufacturer. The first 44 caliber cartridges were proprietary made by Remington, Colt, and Marlin. However, these three cartridges are dimensional very close to each other, and there is some interchangablity between them. These 44 calibers were designed to allow a 6-shot cylinder, which meant that the rear of a percussion cylinder could be cut off, and a new backing plate made to hold the cartridges in the cylinder. This is the method that Remington used for their conversions of all revolver models.

Daniel

[Patbar]

I suspect that the fake nipples were made because in some European countries, among which Germany I think, the law authorized collectors to possess antique cap and ball pistol much more easily than metallic cartridges ones.