1858 NMA - Authenticity question

[Ghaad]

Hi, first time poster here. I recently bought Remington new model army on auction, but I am not sure if its authentic or not. I believe some parts were replaced, and I don't mind it that much but I still have some suspicions. First of all, inscription on barrel says:
"PATENTED SEPT. 14. 1858'
"E.REMINGTON & SONS ILION NEWYORK.U.S.A"
So, 3rd line with 'New Model' is missing. Trigger guard, grips and springs seem to be replacements.
There are serial numbers - 1 under loading lever, 1 under grips. Both read '127917'
So marking seem to checkout, but those are quite rare in Europe, especially here in Poland so I'm not really sure. I'd be grateful for any help and info about the gun.

[Ghaad]

More photos.
Mechanism also is not working, but I won't disassemble it further for now, as if it turns out to be repro I can send it back to seller as long as I didn't damage it.

[Patbar]

I can say for sure that your gun is not authentic. The reference to the only 1858 patent shows that the barrel would come from a Remington-Beals army revolver, a model which was manufactured in 1861-1862 for a total number of around 1900. So, it could not have a serail number as high as 127917 !

Beside, the marking on the barrel of the Remington-Beals was "BEALS PATENT SEPT.14, 1858/MANUFACTURED BY REMINGTONS’ ILION, N.Y.", and the words "Manufactured by" are missing here. Also, the original barrel had a brass cone front sight and not the iron half round sight of the later New Army Model.

Finally, the serial number should appear on the underside of the trigger guard at its rear end, and it is clear that the grips which are period originals are much smaller than the frame of your revolver, and that reveals a modern production either by Pietta or Uberti.

[Ghaad]

Well, At least I can still return it. As to serial number on trigger guard, it actually has it - I just looked on wrong side.
I though maybe the 'New Model' rubbed off or something but I guess it still should left at least some letters..
Rifling doesn't look to be Pietta or Uberti to me, but maybe their older models had deeper cut ones.

[billt]

Hello Ghaad, Welcome to the forum. It looks like you have a genuine New Model Army revolver which has seen some hard use. The small letters stamped in the various parts are sub-inspector marks. Once the revolver passed inspection the Principal Sub-inspector would stamp his cartouche on the left grip panel under the grip screw indicating the revolver was accepted by the Ordnance Department. The cartouche on yours is faint due to the hard use the revolver has seen but it is there. Your revolver was shipped to the Ordnance Department in January of 1865.
There were three barrel addresses used on New Model Army revolvers during the Civil War. The first one was a two line address like you describe without the “New Model”. It was used on Army revolvers in the 10,000 to 20,000 serial number range. The second was the same two line address with the “New Model” stamped between the two lines and the frame. This address was used for a short time on revolvers in the 20,000 serial number range. The final war time address has three lines with the “New Model” stamped under the two lines and on found on most New Model Armies. Because of the high serial number on your revolver it should have the three line address. There are two scenarios of why your revolver has a two line address. (1) I have seen some three line addresses with vary faint “New Model” portion of the address and due to the hard use of your revolver the “New Model” may have just worn off. (2) Remington was known for never throwing anything away and may have found some old unused barrels in inventory with the two line address around the time your revolver was being manufactured and used them up.
The main spring on your revolver is a replacement. From your pictures I believe the trigger guard and grips are original to the gun. The grips do not fit right because the frame is bent. It looks like the bottom of the frame under the main spring slot received a substantial blow which caused the bottom to bow and the grips to not fit correctly. The grip panels look to have been damaged also. Compare the picture of your frame to the one below. You may be able to return it to the seller because the frame is damaged but not because it is a replica.

Bill

[Ghaad]

Thanks for reply!
If it's authentic, then that's enough for me. I knew it was in rough shape when I was buying it and even if it will never work again I'm fine with it.
The grip does look weird, at first i though it was unfinished (I attached picture showing it bit better), as if they 'forgot' to grind off bottom to make it flat, but your theory with it being damaged probably makes more sense.
And if I wanted to return it, i actually don't need reason, in Poland you can return anything you bought on internet up to 14 days , but I think I'll keep it.

[aardq]

Vitim Ghaad, Dzień dobry

I agree with everything that BillT said. My only question is, does the pistol have a cylinder pin? I don't see one, or at least I don't see the head of the cylinder pin which fits into the cut out area of the loading lever. Has the cylinder pin been replaced? That might be the reason that it doesn't work, the replacement pin is bent, or the wrong size, and the cylinder won't turn.

The grips aren't damaged, so either the grips were off the pistol when it was hit hard enough to bend the frame, or the grips were damaged and replaced, but that is minor. It may be possible for a gunsmith to re-bend the frame to original shape.

Daniel

[Ghaad]

It does have cylinder pin, but it seems to be replacement. It lacks the part you grab to pull it out, and because of that I struggled so far to remove it.
As to why it might be not working, I at least found one problem. When I took out trigger guard I noticed that hammer and hand (i think that's how its called? the part that rotates cylinder) are disconnected. Either screw slipped out or snapped. I'm not sure if it's the only problem, but it's an issue for sure. I don't think pin is bent, because when I took out trigger spring and disengaged that part on bottom holding cylinder, I was able to spin cylinder freely while holding hammer.