1894 Hollow Rib--Concave Rib?

[AZMike]

Charles Semmer wrote in a Double Gun Journal article that all 1894 Remington Pigeon Guns had Hollow Ribs, I have noted that the Pigeon Guns and FE Trap Guns have Concave Ribs, that is dished from side to side. A catalog posted by Researcher featured a CEO Trap Grade Gun, Ordinance Steel and "Concave Matted Rib".
Does a concave rib = hollow rib?

[Researcher]

That is what I understand it to be. It appears to me that from the get-go the "Flat-Matted Rib" was standard with "Hollow Rib" to order on B Quality guns and higher. At the time of the introduction of the new style action 1905-6 those terms go away and "Concave Rib" is the norm.

[AZMike]

Dave, thank you for the opinion.
I am looking at a Remington Model 1984 C grade "Pigeon Gun" listed on auction. Upon receiving more photos I see that it has a flat rib. I am wondering if this barrel is inconsistent with what the Pigeon guns should have, that being the more target oriented "Concave" ribbed barrel.
I do understand that Remington would build what a customer wanted but the flat rib would be an apparent downgrade?

[AZMike]

Dave, thank you for the opinion.
I am looking at a Remington Model 1894 C grade "Pigeon Gun" listed on auction. Upon receiving more photos I see that it has a flat rib. I am wondering if this barrel is inconsistent with what the Pigeon guns should have, that being the more target oriented "Concave" ribbed barrel.
I do understand that Remington would build what a customer wanted but the flat rib would be an apparent downgrade?

[Researcher]

I take it you are referring to 139072 in the upcoming Guyette & Deeter Auction. I see the new style action and coming in in the high 131xxx serial number range with the highest serial number old style action I've recorded as 132225. That CEO 139072 is the only gun I've recorded with the new style action and a flat-matted rib. In Parker Bros. guns a high flat rib is considered a "Pigeon" rib. Same with several English makers. Here are a couple of pictures from last time I saw it for sale --

139072 CEO-Grade Pigeon Gun 02.jpg (30.99 KiB) Viewed 1154 times

139072 CEO-Grade Pigeon Gun 01.jpg (53.08 KiB) Viewed 1154 times

[Researcher]

Charles Semmer did two articles on the Pigeon Guns in The Double Gun Journal, Volume One, Issue 4 and Volume Five, Issue 2. In the first article he shows a CEO and a BEO. Even though the only catalog listing of the Pigeon Gons is in the 1902 catalogs, all the no-safety Remington Hammerless Doubles I've recorded are the new style action introduced 1905/6. Charles states the Pigeon Guns had the concave rib, but I don't see "concave" on the Pigeon Gun page of either of the 1902 Remington Arms Co. catalogs. First --

Pigeon Gun, 1st 1902 Remington Arms Co. catalog.jpeg (387.03 KiB) Viewed 1133 times

Second --

Pigeon Gun, 2nd 1902 Remington Arms Co. catalog.jpeg (410.07 KiB) Viewed 1133 times

The CEO TRAP GUN picture used in the 1903-04, 1904-05, 1905, 1905-06 Remington Arms Co. catalogs sure looks like a flat rib to me.

Trap Gun, 1903-04 Remington Arms Co. catalog.jpeg (561.35 KiB) Viewed 1133 times

The 1904 pocket catalog pictures an EEO with flat rib on the TRAP GUN page.

[AZMike]

Well it would seem that target/pigeon shooters were on the "cutting edge" of shotgun accessorizing even in the early days.The raised rib concept on 139072 would be taken to quite the limits on modern trap guns.
My modest collection has a mixture of concave (FE, CEO pigeon) Damascus flat rib (CE pigeon) and a flat rib on my BEO trap gun. The BEO has a dovetail milled forward of the receiver where I'm pretty sure a Marbles sight was added!
Dave, thank you for the "research" on what is fairly obscure facts.
*I got photos from the auction for 139072 and noted the trigger guard has some dents and a nasty crack --bummer!

[AZMike]

1000004288.jpeg (217.17 KiB) Viewed 1096 times

[Researcher]

Some more Trap/Pigeon Gun Minutia!

In the introduction of the FE-Grade Trap Gun in the 1905-06 Remington Arms Co. catalog, the text states "concave rib'"

1905-06 Catalog pg 19, Trap Gun.jpeg (639.88 KiB) Viewed 1089 times

On the page for the higher-grade Trap Guns the rib style isn't mentioned but the picture shows a flat rib, probably a hold-over from the earlier catalogs.

1905-06 Catalog pg 11, Trap Gun.jpeg (619.37 KiB) Viewed 1089 times

Beginning in 1906 the catalog text states "concave rib" for both.

1906 Trap Gun folder pg 2.jpeg (267.07 KiB) Viewed 1089 times

1906 Trap Gun folder pg 3.jpeg (269.52 KiB) Viewed 1089 times

and they no longer list DEO- and EEO-Grade Trap Guns.

Through the 1907 Remington Arms Co. catalog the Trap Guns, both FE- and CEO-Grade are pictured with the raised safety slide.

133596 06.JPG (237.73 KiB) Viewed 1089 times

Beginning in the 1908 Remington Arms Co. catalog the Trap Guns are shown with the dished safety slide.

1908 Catalog pg 16, Trap Guns.jpeg (533.24 KiB) Viewed 1089 times

1908 Catalog pg 17, Trap Gins text.jpeg (638.66 KiB) Viewed 1089 times

138915 02.jpg (335 KiB) Viewed 1089 times

Finally, the magazine ads in the first third of 1907, touting Billy Heer's great 1906 run of 14,055 targets with an average of 96.3% that show his guns, appear to show no safety and very likely special stock dimensions with very straight combs.

The American Field, March 9, 1907, Billy Heer's Guns.jpeg (314.26 KiB) Viewed 1089 times

[Fowlgunner]

Thanks Dave for sharing the additional information.

Seems like there would be some Billy Heer close-ups in that time period that could show his guns in more detail.

Will

[Researcher]

Well, 139072 didn't generate a lot of interest at the auction, going for only $2100.

https://bid.guyetteanddeeter.com/lots/v ... e-bird-gun

Did the auction house send you pictures of the barrel flats and water table. I'd like to see that CS3, April 1925, repair code.

The truly minty CE-Grade, 124712, went for considerably more. I first saw 124712 at a Missoula, MT, gun show about 17-18 years ago.

https://bid.guyetteanddeeter.com/lots/v ... 4-ce-grade