Mystery Rolling Block Carbine

Topics related to Pre - 1898 Remington Rifles
Rob44Cheney
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 2:06 pm

Mystery Rolling Block Carbine

Post by Rob44Cheney » Fri May 31, 2019 8:43 am

Barrel length is 23 inches. The caliber is 50-45 centerfire. It has a typical 2-position carbine rear sight. There is a low 4-digit number on the left side of the barrel near the breech. The number "22" is found on the bottom of the barrel, under the forend. The barrel is slotted for a stud extractor.
The 2-line address on the top tang of the action begins with "Remingtons patent" ID and ends with the patent date April 17th 1868 on the second line. The action is smooth sided like a Type 4 Remington military action. The action displays a "USN Springfield 1870" inscription (with eagle graphic above it) on the right side. Oddly, this inscription has a hole drilled (and tapped) through it to accept a mounting screw for a button retaining plate.
The action has a concave breech block with stud extractor. The action has no groove in the inside left receiver wall for a sliding extractor and no hole for a sliding extractor retaining screw. On the left side of the action there is the customary button retaining plate and an unusual saddle ring staple and ring. It's unusual because the forward mounting point for the staple is below the button retaining plate and the ring appears larger in diameter than the usual RRB military carbine ring.
The forend appears unissued and correctly shaped (with the band spring for the barrel band on the bottom of the forend). The butt stock comb slopes somewhat as it approaches the wrist. It is marked US on the left side of the wrist. The butt stock is also stamped on the right side with the letter "M" or "W" (depending on how it's viewed) inside an oval border.
Thanks in advance for any help identifying this carbine!

wlw-19958
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: Mystery Rolling Block Carbine

Post by wlw-19958 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:39 am

Hi There,

Can you post some pictures?

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Rob44Cheney
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Mystery Rolling Block Carbine

Post by Rob44Cheney » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:14 pm

I'm new at this but I'll work on posting some photos ASAP. Until I can master uploading photos I can tell you that the carbine appears substantially like the one pictured on page 178 of George Layman's 2010 book "Remington Rolling Block Military Rifles of the World". Thanks for your interest!

wlw-19958
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: Mystery Rolling Block Carbine

Post by wlw-19958 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:35 pm

Hi There,

It is good that you have a copy of the George Layman book.
I'm sure you have read the pertaining sections to that model.

Just from your description, it sounds like an 1870 Navy action
manufactured at the Springfield Armory that was later modified
by Whitney for a South American contract and then converted
using one of the left over 1867 Navy carbine barrels and forends
that Dixie Gun Works sold back about 30 to 50 years ago.

Original 1867 Navy carbines are very rare and were some of the
earliest rolling blocks made. They are sought after by collectors
and usually bring high prices when found. Unfortunately, there
have been those that have attempted to "make" one of these from
more available parts. Seeing you have George's book, you have
probably read the section pertaining to unscrupulous gun dealers
that forged these in the past.

The 1870 Navy rifles used the bar type extractor and flat based
breech block like the current Remington production of the time.
You say that there isn't any screw or slot for the bar type extractor
but these may have been expertly plugged to add to the deception.

Anyway, it sound like an interesting rolling block and look forward
to seeing pictures of it.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Rob44Cheney
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Mystery Rolling Block Carbine

Post by Rob44Cheney » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:15 pm

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Rob44Cheney
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Mystery Rolling Block Carbine

Post by Rob44Cheney » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:22 pm

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Rob44Cheney
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Mystery Rolling Block Carbine

Post by Rob44Cheney » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:28 pm

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Rob44Cheney
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Mystery Rolling Block Carbine

Post by Rob44Cheney » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:46 pm

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Rob44Cheney
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Mystery Rolling Block Carbine

Post by Rob44Cheney » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:50 pm

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Rob44Cheney
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Mystery Rolling Block Carbine

Post by Rob44Cheney » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:53 pm

Above are five photos of the subject carbine that provide some additional detail. I'll try to post a right side action view soon.

wlw-19958
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: Mystery Rolling Block Carbine

Post by wlw-19958 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:39 pm

Hi There,

Very nice pics! It would be good if you could include
a pic of the tang markings along with the right-hand
side of the receiver.

I have been examining the one type 2 receiver I have
that has the bar type extractor and there isn't really
any cutout for the extractor visible in the breech of
the receiver. It is in the barrel. So, if as I suspect,
your 1870 USN receiver has a 1867 carbine barrel
screwed into it, there wouldn't be any evidence of
the missing bar extractor except for the screw in the
left-hand side of the frame. This could be expertly
filled and then there would not be any evidence of
it. Without removing the current barrel, one would
have to x-ray the receiver or possibly use acid to show
the presents of the filled hole.

The 1870 USN rifles were inspected and a cartouche applied
to the wrist of the stock. There should be a script ESA
enclosed within an oval (or more correctly, a rectangle
with rounded ends). Erskine S. Allen was the inspector.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Rob44Cheney
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Mystery Rolling Block Carbine

Post by Rob44Cheney » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:10 pm

Thanks for your comments about the photos. In particular you mentioned the extractor groove not being visible at the breech if the barrel is changed (which I certainly agree has happened). I'll try to post a photo of the right side of the reveiver, but the tang markings are clearly what you would expect to find on the 1870 Springfield Navy RB.

Rob44Cheney
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Mystery Rolling Block Carbine

Post by Rob44Cheney » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:45 pm

I should add that there is no "anchor" mark visible on the barrel nor is any cartouche visible on the stock wood. Marks on the wood consist of the "US" stamp on the wrist of the butt stock and the "M" or "W" stamp on the side of the buttstock, positioned in an oval border.

Rob44Cheney
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Mystery Rolling Block Carbine

Post by Rob44Cheney » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:10 pm

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wlw-19958
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: Mystery Rolling Block Carbine

Post by wlw-19958 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:33 pm

Hi There,

I believe the 1867 Navy carbine barrels didn't have
an anchor stamp on them. They were marked on the
right-hand side of the frame.

I also notice there is something unusual about your
butt-stock. there seems to be a step in the wood
just before it come in contact with the frame. It
looks like it possibly came from a type 3 or type 4
frame that have the "mortised" sides.

I hope you post a pic of the tang showing the markings
and the wood-metal joint soon.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

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