Pigeon Gun ? or Trap Gun ?

Topics related to Pre - 1898 Remington Shotguns
M1tankgod
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 24, 2019 7:34 pm

Pigeon Gun ? or Trap Gun ?

Post by M1tankgod » Fri May 24, 2019 8:25 pm

Happened across this so just had to have it,

But what is it ?
Trap guns didn't have safety's or so I'm told
The single trigger is an oddity as well ,
Ordnance barrels ?
FE grade C

Can any one help me figure out what this thing is ..

30" barrels
English stock
7lbs 14oz
added a few photos

Thanks for your help
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2shooter
Posts: 208
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Location: ohio

Re: Pigeon Gun ? or Trap Gun ?

Post by 2shooter » Fri May 24, 2019 9:02 pm

Remington 1894 F grade trap guns have safety button. The Pigeon Gun does not have a safety the safety slot is filled in at the factory when gun was made.I cannot tell from pictures what grade your gun is if it has a safety it could be a F Trap. They were marked on side barrels F Trap. Your Gun could be a C Grade standard Model not a Trap Gun. There is a C stamp on receiver water table that is the grade of gun. I have a C grade with Ordnance barrels.

Researcher
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Location: Washington and Alaska

Re: Pigeon Gun ? or Trap Gun ?

Post by Researcher » Sat May 25, 2019 10:16 am

The gun is marked as a C quality gun, and has Ordnance Steel barrels, so probably a CEO-Grade. E.D. Fulford was a shooter and inventor, and won the 1898 Grand American Handicap at live birds shooting a Remington Hammerless Double. The serial number on the gun in question dates it to 1898, according to the serial number chronology in the late Charles Semmer's book Remington Double Shotguns. It appears from your pictures that part number 27, the Joint Check, is missing off the knuckle of the gun --
1901 catalogue parts diagram.jpg
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109760 08.png
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Elijah D. Fulford had four single trigger patents -- Patent No. 704,024 granted July 8, 1902; Patent No. 704,025 granted July 8, 1902; Patent No. 749,687 granted Jan. 12, 1904 and Patent No. 751,979 granted Feb. 9, 1904 -- all with drawings showing the trigger on a Remington Hammerless Double. This magazine ad from January 2, 1904, shows his trigger on a Parker Bros. --
E.D. Fulford, Jan. 2, 1904, The American Field.jpeg
Jan. 2, 1904, The American Field
E.D. Fulford, Jan. 2, 1904, The American Field.jpeg (351.37 KiB) Viewed 1600 times


While I'm sure Remington Arms Co. made no-safety "Pigeon Guns" to customer's order throughout the production run of the Remington Hammerless Double, they only advertised a "Pigeon Gun" in the 1902 catalogs --
Pigeon Gun, 1902 Remington Arms Co. catalog.jpeg
Pigeon Gun, 1902 Remington Arms Co. catalog.jpeg (501.15 KiB) Viewed 1600 times
and in those the gun pictured shows a safety slide?!? The last GAH at live birds was held at Kansas City in 1902.

From the 1903-04 Remington Arms Co. catalog onward they offered the "Trap Gun" --
Trap Gun, 1903-04 Remington Arms Co. catalog.jpeg
Trap Gun, 1903-04 Remington Arms Co. catalog.jpeg (561.35 KiB) Viewed 1600 times
In 1906 they added the lower priced FE-Grade "Trap Gun" to their offerings.

M1tankgod
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 24, 2019 7:34 pm

Re: Pigeon Gun ? or Trap Gun ?

Post by M1tankgod » Sat May 25, 2019 12:25 pm

Wow Nice so it’s neither it’s just a CEO grade with a single trigger ,

And an English stock ,

Nice catch on the knuckle , it appeared to be missing something couldn’t put my finger on it.
So with that missing would be issue I see with ejectors being weak ?

Thanks for the information ,

Ken

Drew Hause
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Re: Pigeon Gun ? or Trap Gun ?

Post by Drew Hause » Sat May 25, 2019 1:12 pm

Many thanks to Researcher for letting me know about this neat thread, and gun!

E.D. Fulford defeated Capt. Jack Brewer “Champion Wing Shot of the World” and “The Best Shot on Live Birds the World Has Ever Known” when they shot three, 100 bird matches at Al Heritage's grounds, Marion, New Jersey in November, 1891 for $3000 a side. Fulford killed 204 birds straight during the event.
Fulford won the rematch January, 1892 at Woodland Park, Long Island for $1,000 a side, killing 100 birds straight to Brewer’s 99. In preliminary practice and in the match Fulford scored 421 birds straight. After the loss, Brewer declared “I will shoot against any man in the world for the World's Championship Cup which I now hold with $5000 or $10,000 a side, Hurlingham or London Club rules to govern.” There is no record that match took place.

Fulford used a Greener double at the 1895 GAH at Live Birds

Sporting Life, Nov. 8, 1895
E. D. Fulford is now using a single-barrel gun, and claims that he can do better work with it as inanimate targets than, when using a double-barrel gun. The new gun is a Greener, single-barrel, 12-bore, weighing 7 1/2 pounds, with a 32-inch barrel, and can use from 40 to 60 grains of powder without any variation in pattern. The breech is extra heavy, and the gun throughout made to stand heavy loads.

In April 1896 Sporting Life reported he was using a Francotte SBT
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collec ... 7/id/47140

At a Live Bird championship in N.J. Dec. 1896, Fulford used a 8# Greener double with 1 1/4 oz. shot and 54 grains = 3 3/4 Dr. Eq. “Schultze”
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collec ... 7/id/46665

In 1898 he was a representative of U.M.C. and Remington, and won the 1898 Grand American Handicap at Live Birds with a Remington hammerless weighing 7 3/4 lbs., 3 1/2 Dram “Schultze” powder in U.M.C. Trap shells, three inches in length; 1 1/4 oz. No. 7 shot.
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collec ... 7/id/45659

Image

BTW: Remington offered the winner of the 1899 GAH a "$300 Finest Hammerless Ejector Trap Gun" if he had used Remington Hammerless

Image

Tom Marshall repeated as winner of the 1899 GAH with a Cashmore.

No way to know if this is the gun Fulford used at the 1898 GAH, but it certainly seems reasonable that he DID use this gun to promote his single trigger. Researcher has the earliest Fulford single trigger ads that I have seen. "Ordnance Steel" was available on the Model of 1894 Hammerless starting in 1897.

More about his unfortunate early death in 1904 at the bottom here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vxq ... cQ/preview

dieNusse1
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Re: Pigeon Gun ? or Trap Gun ?

Post by dieNusse1 » Sat May 25, 2019 2:37 pm

English style stocks were offered with both Trap and Pigeon grades. All others grades had standard pistol grip style(s) stocks unless special ordered from the factory.

If there is no safety you have a Pigeon grade with single trigger added. If there is a safety, it's a CEO.

In addition to the missing joint check, it appears that the trigger plate screws are not proper as they appear to be round head rather than engraved flat head.

I don't think the missing check joint would affect ejector operation. Most likely weak or broken ejector springs in the forearm. Another possibility is weak or broken main spring since the end of the main spring trips the ejector sear when the gun is fired. No contact - poor ejection

There are members that can help you with needed parts.

Also I see a 2 stamped under the S/N on the watertable. Any idea what that might mean?

More pics would help as this appears to be an interesting example.

Researcher
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Re: Pigeon Gun ? or Trap Gun ?

Post by Researcher » Sat May 25, 2019 6:05 pm

The missing joint check means the ejectors are doing all the work of extracting and ejecting the fired case. The joint check will push on the ejector stems to do the initial extraction, loosening the case, allowing the ejector to then kick it much farther.

Researcher
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Re: Pigeon Gun ? or Trap Gun ?

Post by Researcher » Sat May 25, 2019 7:45 pm

All others grades had standard pistol grip style(s) stocks unless special ordered from the factory.
That is a hard statement to back up. From the introduction of the Remington Hammerless Double in the October 1894 Remington Arms Co. catalog through the 1901 Remington Arms Co. catalogs they only pictured the A- and AE-Grades and very briefly listed and described the other grades. The only mention of grip style is the half-pistol grip on the A- and AE-Grades. From the 1898 Remington Arms Co. catalog --
1898 Remington Arms Co. catalog pg 6.jpeg
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1898 Remington Arms Co. Catalog pg 7.jpeg
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Researcher
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Re: Pigeon Gun ? or Trap Gun ?

Post by Researcher » Sun May 26, 2019 2:35 pm

English style stocks were offered with both Trap and Pigeon grades.
Charles Semmer used the term Pigeon Grade in his book, but in the two 1902 Remington Arms Co. catalogs that list them, it is Pigeon Gun --
Pigeon Gun first 1902 Remington Arms Co. catalog.jpeg
First 1902 Remington Arms Co. catalog
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Pigeon Gun second 1902 Remington Arms Co. catalog.jpeg
Second 1902 Remington Arms Co. catalog
Pigeon Gun second 1902 Remington Arms Co. catalog.jpeg (421.65 KiB) Viewed 1549 times
Same thing with the Trap Gun --
Trap Gun 1903-04 Remington Arms Co. catalog.jpeg
1903-04 Remington Arms Co. catalog
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Trap Gun 1904-05 Remington Arms Co. catalog.jpeg
1904-05 Remington Arms Co. catalog
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Trap Gun 1905-06 Remington Arms Co. catalog.jpeg
1905-06 Remington Arms Co. catalog
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Once Remington Arms Co. began showing all the grades of their Remington Hammerless Doubles in the 1902 catalogs, the A-, B-, and C-quality guns were offered with half or full pistol grip. The D-quality guns were offered with straight or full pistol grip and the E-quality guns were offered with straight, half or full pistol grip. By the late catalogs from 1908 and 09 straight grips were offered on all qualities from A to E.

Drew Hause
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Re: Pigeon Gun ? or Trap Gun ?

Post by Drew Hause » Tue May 28, 2019 6:58 am

More on the 1898 GAH in Forest & Stream, April 2, 1898
https://books.google.com/books?id=EkkhAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA276

Fulford won the Preliminary Handicap at the 1901 2nd Interstate Grand American Handicap at Targets at Interstate Park, Long Island
https://books.google.com/books?id=qkMhAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA79

The Fulford Single Trigger was available by Jan. 1903 through Chamberlin Cartridge Co.
January 17, 1903 Sporting Life
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collec ... 0045/rec/3
February 28, 1903
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collec ... 0168/rec/4

Researcher
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Re: Pigeon Gun ? or Trap Gun ?

Post by Researcher » Tue May 28, 2019 8:19 am

Doc, thanks for adding the historical back ground. In that the reports for the 1898 GAH say Fulford used 3-inch UMC TRAP shells, it would be great if the OP posted a picture of the bottom of the barrels to see if this gun was chambered for long shells. Here is how Remington Arms Co. marked their guns that were chambered for longer than their "standard" 2 5/8 inch shells --
123247 11 Chamber Length Markings.jpg
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121252 DEO-Grade 07 2 7-8 inch chamber marking.jpg
121252 DEO-Grade 07 2 7-8 inch chamber marking.jpg (344.13 KiB) Viewed 1520 times

M1tankgod
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Re: Pigeon Gun ? or Trap Gun ?

Post by M1tankgod » Tue May 28, 2019 10:18 am

Here is a picture of the barrels I will take another when I get home this evening, marked. 2-7/8 inch
I know that the markings on the barrels are not like any of my other Remingtons showing shot count , on the rearward locking lug it has the word full stamped in it

What would be the odds that this is the gun Fulford used ? would be incredible if it was and could be documented

Thanks for the great information
I might learn more when I start to get it back into working order and uncover the working parts

Ken
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Researcher
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Re: Pigeon Gun ? or Trap Gun ?

Post by Researcher » Wed May 29, 2019 4:06 pm

Looks like the barrels were originally stamped 2 7/8 but the stampings have been somewhat polished away in prep for the one, or more, rebluings those barrels have had. Can you measure the chambers and see how deep they are? While I have saved pictures of barrels with the 2 3/4 and 2 7/8 stampings, I've never had a chance to measure the chambers in such a gun. Of course there is the good possibility the chambers of any of these Remington Doubles have been messed with in the 110 years or more since they left Ilion.

There is also the question of what these stampings mean. Do they mean the gun is intended for shells of that length? Does it mean the chambers are that length? Some of our manufacturers (Parker Bros. and A.H. Fox Gun Co. for sure) held their chambers 1/8 inch shorter than the intended shells, believing that having the case mouth extend a bit into the forcing cone when the shell is fired cushions the transition, gives a better gas seal for the wads, and improves patterns.

P.S. There is a lot of variation in the diameters of the chambers in these old guns at the mouth and the machinist ruler method is often more accurate than using a gauge made to modern day "industry standards."

Drew Hause
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Re: Pigeon Gun ? or Trap Gun ?

Post by Drew Hause » Wed May 29, 2019 5:13 pm

That is a good point.
Wm. Cashmore Pigeon gun marked "3 1/4" CASES". Unfortunately, I don't know the chamber length

Image

1923 L.C. Smith "CHAMBERS 2 7/8 INCHES"

Image

Fowlgunner
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Re: Pigeon Gun ? or Trap Gun ?

Post by Fowlgunner » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:28 am

The 1897 Hartley and Graham catalogue "muddies" the water for me a little on this topic.

If you read the footnote on the right hand page this, to me anyway, suggests that at this point in history any straight gripped gun was a Pigeon type gun.

This would be as opposed to a Pigeon Gun (Grade) which Dave has provided catalog cuts that had specific specifications.

Will
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