What is this , I do not know this model?
Philippe
Carbine witch Chassepot lug...
Carbine witch Chassepot lug...
Hello,
What is this , I do not know this model?
Philippe
What is this , I do not know this model?
Philippe
Re: Carbine witch Chassepot lug...
Philippe,
This example seems enigmatic in more ways than one. First, a determination of the caliber would help through either a chamber cast, or attempting a "ball park" fitting of cartridges. Looking at the chamber however, gives the impression of a base diameter akin to .58 Berdan or .577...The bayonet lug and tenon which is in the Chassepot vein, is quite unique, in that the only two countries that come to mind using such an arrangement on a rolling block is; a) Uruguay which we know used the .43 Spanish caliber Francotte Musketoon that had both a long saber type bayonet lug and tenon, and b) the old question of the Greek Remington made rolling block having or not having a tenon jumps back into the picture. The only specimen known so far having that feature is the Remington museum prototype Greek rifle. Being this is an early, pre August 1870 style action with the concave block, along with a crown and what appears as "21", provokes thoughts of this being one of the so called, 1,300 Greek carbines that to my knowledge has never before come to light. If proven as such, it would be considered a stupendous find in the Remington rolling block field of study. In any case, please attempt to ID the caliber as a start.
George Layman
This example seems enigmatic in more ways than one. First, a determination of the caliber would help through either a chamber cast, or attempting a "ball park" fitting of cartridges. Looking at the chamber however, gives the impression of a base diameter akin to .58 Berdan or .577...The bayonet lug and tenon which is in the Chassepot vein, is quite unique, in that the only two countries that come to mind using such an arrangement on a rolling block is; a) Uruguay which we know used the .43 Spanish caliber Francotte Musketoon that had both a long saber type bayonet lug and tenon, and b) the old question of the Greek Remington made rolling block having or not having a tenon jumps back into the picture. The only specimen known so far having that feature is the Remington museum prototype Greek rifle. Being this is an early, pre August 1870 style action with the concave block, along with a crown and what appears as "21", provokes thoughts of this being one of the so called, 1,300 Greek carbines that to my knowledge has never before come to light. If proven as such, it would be considered a stupendous find in the Remington rolling block field of study. In any case, please attempt to ID the caliber as a start.
George Layman
Re: Carbine witch Chassepot lug...
Philippe,
More photos please, of both sides of the frame.
Ed
More photos please, of both sides of the frame.
Ed
Re: Carbine witch Chassepot lug...
Also, does it accept the Chassepot M1866 bayonet or the Remington Egyptian Chassepot-type sword bayonet? You pointed out earlier that the muzzle diameters are different.
Re: Carbine witch Chassepot lug...
Hello Ed,
this carbine accept only an M1866 Chassepot bayonet because the form of large base rear of lug, and diameter 17 mm
Philippe
this carbine accept only an M1866 Chassepot bayonet because the form of large base rear of lug, and diameter 17 mm
Philippe
Re: Carbine witch Chassepot lug...
Hello George,
I think that it is originally a Remington Carbine ( .44-40?) bought by Uruguay for artillery service? But it was rechambered into 28-gauge shotgun...
Philippe
I think that it is originally a Remington Carbine ( .44-40?) bought by Uruguay for artillery service? But it was rechambered into 28-gauge shotgun...
Philippe
Re: Carbine witch Chassepot lug...
Philippe,
Very good photos. This was not a Uruguayan 44-40 carbine, because it it a military frame (like a Model #1) and not a Model 1-1/2 frame like the Baby Carbines that went to Uruguay.
It looks like a remanufactured rifle, perhaps French surplus from the 1870 war. The muzzle characteristics (studs for larger Chassepot M1866 bayonet, flat crown to the end of the barrel) are not like any Remington factory product.
Perhaps it was made up as a police carbine for colonial militia, because of the smooth bore shotgun caliber?
If it does not have a carbine sling swivel on the left side of the frame, then it was likely a rifle cut down.
Ed
Very good photos. This was not a Uruguayan 44-40 carbine, because it it a military frame (like a Model #1) and not a Model 1-1/2 frame like the Baby Carbines that went to Uruguay.
It looks like a remanufactured rifle, perhaps French surplus from the 1870 war. The muzzle characteristics (studs for larger Chassepot M1866 bayonet, flat crown to the end of the barrel) are not like any Remington factory product.
Perhaps it was made up as a police carbine for colonial militia, because of the smooth bore shotgun caliber?
If it does not have a carbine sling swivel on the left side of the frame, then it was likely a rifle cut down.
Ed
Re: Carbine witch Chassepot lug...
Hello Ed,
Look, it is a modified carbine?
Philippe
Look, it is a modified carbine?
Philippe
Re: Carbine witch Chassepot lug...
It has no sling swivel on the frame as an original carbine would have. It was most likely a rifle that was altered into a "carbine."
Ed
Ed
Re: Carbine witch Chassepot lug...
Hi Philippe,
I agree with Ed, these are great photos. I talked with a friend in Uruguay on this and according to him, many old rolling blocks there in the past were re-chambered to use 28 gauge shot shells as stocks of the original .43 Spanish cartridge were practically depleted by the 1930s and 40s. Thus the 28 gauge was (and still may be) very popular there for hunting. The Uruguayan Army trade school in Montivideo was well known working or even tinkering so to speak with arms of all types. To me, I almost feel this might be an old .43 caliber Francotte rolling block musketoon barrel that was removed, and bored out to 28 gauge, then resold to the Uruguayan civilian market. The Francotte had the identical bayonet lug arrangement, so perhaps anything here could be possible. I obtained a full length rolling block rifle from Haiti about 12 years ago found in the border areas with Dominican Republic that was also rebored to 28 gauge from a hunter who said even old rolling block rifles in an original military caliber used there 100 years ago was prohibited to own. Thus the reason for its caliber change to a sporting shotgun gauge. Anyhow, hope this helps.
George Layman
I agree with Ed, these are great photos. I talked with a friend in Uruguay on this and according to him, many old rolling blocks there in the past were re-chambered to use 28 gauge shot shells as stocks of the original .43 Spanish cartridge were practically depleted by the 1930s and 40s. Thus the 28 gauge was (and still may be) very popular there for hunting. The Uruguayan Army trade school in Montivideo was well known working or even tinkering so to speak with arms of all types. To me, I almost feel this might be an old .43 caliber Francotte rolling block musketoon barrel that was removed, and bored out to 28 gauge, then resold to the Uruguayan civilian market. The Francotte had the identical bayonet lug arrangement, so perhaps anything here could be possible. I obtained a full length rolling block rifle from Haiti about 12 years ago found in the border areas with Dominican Republic that was also rebored to 28 gauge from a hunter who said even old rolling block rifles in an original military caliber used there 100 years ago was prohibited to own. Thus the reason for its caliber change to a sporting shotgun gauge. Anyhow, hope this helps.
George Layman
Re: Carbine witch Chassepot lug...
Thank you George, I am going to leave awaiting ranking...
Philippe
Philippe