Hey Huron!
Lucky me, I work on these rifles and ONLY these rifles.
A couple of questions.........where are you located and what caliber and brand of ammunition are you loading????
I'll tell you what I just told another chap on the Forum and that is essentially the cause of poor feed with these rifles is from reloads that are just a "tad" too long. I'll say it again that OACL for any caliber on the M14 or M141 is critical and if you are using anything but round nose ammunition it will not function.
That "lifter" thingy the gunsmith was referring to we call the "carrier", Winchester called it a "lifter".....LOL.
Hope this is of some help!
Jim
Remington Model 141
Re: Remington Model 141
Jim Peterson
Re: Remington Model 141
Tom!
Before we do anything you need to provide me with the caliber and the OACL of your loaded rounds. Let us see if we can take care of this without shipping out your rifle. I have no doubt your gunsmith is competent but working on these guns is different, parts are almost impossible to find, and I have found that feed problems on the M141 are almost always ammunition related.
I'm not saying your reloads suck but these rifles will NOT digest rounds that are ever so slightly long, have the least little nick on the brass, and seem to prefer Remington over Western-Winchester brass.
So Mic your reloads and get back to me and we'll go from there!
nambujim@carolina.rr.com is you want to email me.
Jim
Before we do anything you need to provide me with the caliber and the OACL of your loaded rounds. Let us see if we can take care of this without shipping out your rifle. I have no doubt your gunsmith is competent but working on these guns is different, parts are almost impossible to find, and I have found that feed problems on the M141 are almost always ammunition related.
I'm not saying your reloads suck but these rifles will NOT digest rounds that are ever so slightly long, have the least little nick on the brass, and seem to prefer Remington over Western-Winchester brass.
So Mic your reloads and get back to me and we'll go from there!
nambujim@carolina.rr.com is you want to email me.
Jim
Jim Peterson
Re: Remington Model 141
Tom!
2.5" exactly is what I use, current factory stuff will measure a hair longer but if the brass is nicked or messed up in any way they work poorly.
I'll be glad to work on your gun, in the meantime check to make sure the "carrier dog" a/k/a "the little flippy thingy" on the floor of the triggerguard assembly is working freely and that the spring is doing its job.
Take care & good luck!
Jim
2.5" exactly is what I use, current factory stuff will measure a hair longer but if the brass is nicked or messed up in any way they work poorly.
I'll be glad to work on your gun, in the meantime check to make sure the "carrier dog" a/k/a "the little flippy thingy" on the floor of the triggerguard assembly is working freely and that the spring is doing its job.
Take care & good luck!
Jim
Jim Peterson
Re: Remington Model 141
Hey Tom!
Yeah, the trick is knowing how to do it.
Remove the magazine plug, spring, & follower!
You first need to unscrew the takedown screw and separate the stock/lower receiver from the main receiver.
Then with the bolt shucked to the back of the frame lift up the back of the bolt to remove it, you may have to jiggle it a bit but it should lift out.
After that you need to remove the tiny screw that holds the action bar over in place and retains the cartridge stop......it's the screw on the right front of the frame that threads into the receiver.
Slide the action bar cover forward.
Then shake out the cartridge stop.
Then unscrew the fore end screws.
Then the action bar cover should slide up under the fore arm and you can
wiggle it out.
The action bar and magzine tube should then slide out through the frame.
It's really easy.........if everything goes right and you've done it 500 times.
Hope that helps & hope I didn't forget any steps.
Jim
Yeah, the trick is knowing how to do it.
Remove the magazine plug, spring, & follower!
You first need to unscrew the takedown screw and separate the stock/lower receiver from the main receiver.
Then with the bolt shucked to the back of the frame lift up the back of the bolt to remove it, you may have to jiggle it a bit but it should lift out.
After that you need to remove the tiny screw that holds the action bar over in place and retains the cartridge stop......it's the screw on the right front of the frame that threads into the receiver.
Slide the action bar cover forward.
Then shake out the cartridge stop.
Then unscrew the fore end screws.
Then the action bar cover should slide up under the fore arm and you can
wiggle it out.
The action bar and magzine tube should then slide out through the frame.
It's really easy.........if everything goes right and you've done it 500 times.
Hope that helps & hope I didn't forget any steps.
Jim
Jim Peterson
Re: Remington Model 141
Tom!
I was about to head off to bed when I thought it best to warn you of a couple of things. "If" you get the gun taken apart and go to remove the "carrier" or lifter as the case may be there are a couple of things that you need to be aware of.
First the carrier should move freely in the slot in the back of the action bar, if not it could be a bent "carrier pin" (sometimes replaced with a nail) or it could just be filthy in the slot/channel cut for it. You do need to be very careful when removing the carrier (the pin should come out easily) but there is a spring and a plunger in the carrier designed to keep it snug and so that it will not just flop around in the slot.
Usually the spring and plunger won't exit when removed but if it does you will never find it..........never is a long time, might take you a week! Just be careful and again check the "carrier dog" to make sure it springs back/forth and is under some tension for the "carrier dog spring". If that spring is flattened out/depressed the dog will function poorly.
If all else fails, ship the bloody thing to me and I'll take care of it. Probably cost you $20-25 each way and unless it's a total bitch to fix probably cost you $40 + parts but I have a LOT of carriers so I won't hurt you too badly. At least that gives you an option.
You are sure this is an M141 and not a 14??? Can you pass along the serial so Tom Hemphill can add it to his data base.
Jim
I was about to head off to bed when I thought it best to warn you of a couple of things. "If" you get the gun taken apart and go to remove the "carrier" or lifter as the case may be there are a couple of things that you need to be aware of.
First the carrier should move freely in the slot in the back of the action bar, if not it could be a bent "carrier pin" (sometimes replaced with a nail) or it could just be filthy in the slot/channel cut for it. You do need to be very careful when removing the carrier (the pin should come out easily) but there is a spring and a plunger in the carrier designed to keep it snug and so that it will not just flop around in the slot.
Usually the spring and plunger won't exit when removed but if it does you will never find it..........never is a long time, might take you a week! Just be careful and again check the "carrier dog" to make sure it springs back/forth and is under some tension for the "carrier dog spring". If that spring is flattened out/depressed the dog will function poorly.
If all else fails, ship the bloody thing to me and I'll take care of it. Probably cost you $20-25 each way and unless it's a total bitch to fix probably cost you $40 + parts but I have a LOT of carriers so I won't hurt you too badly. At least that gives you an option.
You are sure this is an M141 and not a 14??? Can you pass along the serial so Tom Hemphill can add it to his data base.
Jim
Jim Peterson
Re: Remington Model 141
Tom!
Let me say this, usually when these rifles won't separate it is because they haven't been taken down in a very long time and have dried oil & crud sort of gluing them together. I have seen this a lot on older Model 14's. It could also be that the trigger bushing has moved out a little but I am voting on the "crud" theory.
Let me suggest that you remove the stock, you will need a long rather substantial blade slotted screwdriver to access the stock bolt. After you get the stock off and you are SURE the takedown screw is fully withdrawn (it is retained by a pin so that you can't fully remove it) tap the top of the lower receiver with a dead blow hammer a/k/a rubber mallet. Before doing so make sure that the bolt is fully closed/forward.
This isn't a shot at your gunsmith but if you can't readily separate the upper and lower I am wondering how he got inside to work on it. I don't know this because some of these rifles do come apart with some effort but few M141's are afflicted with this malady.
If the upper/lower are sealed up with crud then I am thinking the inside must be as well, that being the case it could be the carrier which is located in the middle of a "crud catching" area may be a victim as well.
If this situation starts getting the best of you, don't panic....we will get it working eventually, the impossible just takes a little more time.
Tom Hemphill is buidling a data base of serial numbers for the M14, 141, & 25. It sort of tells us how many of each caliber are out there and have survived. He is also a nice guy but keeps making me respond to other peoples problems on the forum..........LOL!
Let me say this, usually when these rifles won't separate it is because they haven't been taken down in a very long time and have dried oil & crud sort of gluing them together. I have seen this a lot on older Model 14's. It could also be that the trigger bushing has moved out a little but I am voting on the "crud" theory.
Let me suggest that you remove the stock, you will need a long rather substantial blade slotted screwdriver to access the stock bolt. After you get the stock off and you are SURE the takedown screw is fully withdrawn (it is retained by a pin so that you can't fully remove it) tap the top of the lower receiver with a dead blow hammer a/k/a rubber mallet. Before doing so make sure that the bolt is fully closed/forward.
This isn't a shot at your gunsmith but if you can't readily separate the upper and lower I am wondering how he got inside to work on it. I don't know this because some of these rifles do come apart with some effort but few M141's are afflicted with this malady.
If the upper/lower are sealed up with crud then I am thinking the inside must be as well, that being the case it could be the carrier which is located in the middle of a "crud catching" area may be a victim as well.
If this situation starts getting the best of you, don't panic....we will get it working eventually, the impossible just takes a little more time.
Tom Hemphill is buidling a data base of serial numbers for the M14, 141, & 25. It sort of tells us how many of each caliber are out there and have survived. He is also a nice guy but keeps making me respond to other peoples problems on the forum..........LOL!
Jim Peterson
Re: Remington Model 141
Tom!
Lets check out the "carrier dog", there should be a wire spring in a channel on one side of the dog! Advise if it is missing or if it is totally flattened out. My test to see if the "dog" is working is to hold it down on one side and then release it against a fingernail on the other side........if it smarts a bit, it's working, if it doesn't move at all there is no spring or a totally ineffective spring. Test it and let me know!
Now them, you should be readily able to remove the pin from the carrier located at the end of the action bar using a punch or something similar. It should come out easily, it has a head on one end, can only be removed in one direction. You can then slide out the carrier (MAKING SURE TO PUT YOUR HAND OVER IT TO PREVENT THE FRICTION PLUNGER FROM SHOOTING INTO ORBIT). If it were here I would remove the friction plunger & spring then clean all the parts on a fine wire wheel, clean the channel it fits into, lubricate it well and re-assemble.
You seem to be on a mission to do this yourself so I'll help all I can but trying to describe some of this is not easy............the fact you got it apart is a minor victory (I would take a pointed tool of some sort and clean all the chanels on the upper/lower receiver, I use something that looks like a dental pick) you will be amazed at how much hardened black crud will come out of those channels. The M141's usually come apart and slide back together easy.
................OK...............if the carrier dog doesn't test right you will have to send me the guard so I can install a new spring, they are so hard to find that I had a chap make some up for me that work perfectly. It requires that the carrier dog pin be removed (it only comes out one way), then the dog and the old spring can be removed and the channel cleaned. The spring is then replaced , held in position (that's the fun part) by the dog while you attempt to get the pin back in.
While you have the bolt out of rifle you might want to soak it down with WD40 or use "Gun Scrubber" on it to get out any dirt, blow it out with an air hose and then lubricate it. You will find that re-inserting the bolt is annoying if you don't do it properly and when the time comes I'll help you out.
Isn't this fun?
Lets check out the "carrier dog", there should be a wire spring in a channel on one side of the dog! Advise if it is missing or if it is totally flattened out. My test to see if the "dog" is working is to hold it down on one side and then release it against a fingernail on the other side........if it smarts a bit, it's working, if it doesn't move at all there is no spring or a totally ineffective spring. Test it and let me know!
Now them, you should be readily able to remove the pin from the carrier located at the end of the action bar using a punch or something similar. It should come out easily, it has a head on one end, can only be removed in one direction. You can then slide out the carrier (MAKING SURE TO PUT YOUR HAND OVER IT TO PREVENT THE FRICTION PLUNGER FROM SHOOTING INTO ORBIT). If it were here I would remove the friction plunger & spring then clean all the parts on a fine wire wheel, clean the channel it fits into, lubricate it well and re-assemble.
You seem to be on a mission to do this yourself so I'll help all I can but trying to describe some of this is not easy............the fact you got it apart is a minor victory (I would take a pointed tool of some sort and clean all the chanels on the upper/lower receiver, I use something that looks like a dental pick) you will be amazed at how much hardened black crud will come out of those channels. The M141's usually come apart and slide back together easy.
................OK...............if the carrier dog doesn't test right you will have to send me the guard so I can install a new spring, they are so hard to find that I had a chap make some up for me that work perfectly. It requires that the carrier dog pin be removed (it only comes out one way), then the dog and the old spring can be removed and the channel cleaned. The spring is then replaced , held in position (that's the fun part) by the dog while you attempt to get the pin back in.
While you have the bolt out of rifle you might want to soak it down with WD40 or use "Gun Scrubber" on it to get out any dirt, blow it out with an air hose and then lubricate it. You will find that re-inserting the bolt is annoying if you don't do it properly and when the time comes I'll help you out.
Isn't this fun?
Jim Peterson
Re: Remington Model 141
Talk about fun, I had finished my reply and was about to hit the send button when a storm came through taking out the power and breaking a big branch off one of my Bradford Pear trees so this response was delayed by an hour.
My address is the same.
I will get your triggerguard back in the mail to you the day after I get it and will check out the trigger assembly to make sure it is clean and working properly. The last price I had on the carrier dog spring was $165, OK I'm a big fat liar they are about $4 and in this one cae I'll do the labor gratis.
Yeah, those little inserts "I think" are called action bar supports but I don't think anyone has figured out what they really do. They started using them in very late Model 14 production and had to add to the cost with the milling of the parts, milling out the TG, and fitting the little buggers. They do make it just a bit more annoying when you are trying to replace the carrier dog pin.
Hope this is helpful, maybe in the meantime you can clean up the carrier or if you like just remove it and send it and the pin to me and I'll clean it up for you.
Regards!
Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC 28270
My address is the same.
I will get your triggerguard back in the mail to you the day after I get it and will check out the trigger assembly to make sure it is clean and working properly. The last price I had on the carrier dog spring was $165, OK I'm a big fat liar they are about $4 and in this one cae I'll do the labor gratis.
Yeah, those little inserts "I think" are called action bar supports but I don't think anyone has figured out what they really do. They started using them in very late Model 14 production and had to add to the cost with the milling of the parts, milling out the TG, and fitting the little buggers. They do make it just a bit more annoying when you are trying to replace the carrier dog pin.
Hope this is helpful, maybe in the meantime you can clean up the carrier or if you like just remove it and send it and the pin to me and I'll clean it up for you.
Regards!
Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC 28270
Jim Peterson
Re: Remington Model 141
Tom!
We'll worry about payment later, it's no big deal and the priority here is to get your rifle in working order but cash or personal check is fine.
You have my correct address.
That "sliding piece" is called the ejector and I was going to tell you about that but was hoping it wouldn't pop off but please do make sure it is working in conjuction with the ejector rod. They fit together and work together, another thing is that I put the bolt into the cock position before re-inserting then utilize the ejector by pushing it forward along with the bolt until it locks up against the action bar.............we ought to make a video of this....LOL!
I want you to know that you are at least above average in intelligence to get the rifle taken down, sorted out, and for the most part have figured out what is going on. I know of a number of serious collectors that can't do that.
I look forward to getting the TG, the only difficult part is removing the pin without scoring the assembly.....................sometimes they are a little tempermental and I have to use the "big" hammer. I have done it hundreds of times but no two ever seem to cooperate in the same fashion.
Best regards!
We'll worry about payment later, it's no big deal and the priority here is to get your rifle in working order but cash or personal check is fine.
You have my correct address.
That "sliding piece" is called the ejector and I was going to tell you about that but was hoping it wouldn't pop off but please do make sure it is working in conjuction with the ejector rod. They fit together and work together, another thing is that I put the bolt into the cock position before re-inserting then utilize the ejector by pushing it forward along with the bolt until it locks up against the action bar.............we ought to make a video of this....LOL!
I want you to know that you are at least above average in intelligence to get the rifle taken down, sorted out, and for the most part have figured out what is going on. I know of a number of serious collectors that can't do that.
I look forward to getting the TG, the only difficult part is removing the pin without scoring the assembly.....................sometimes they are a little tempermental and I have to use the "big" hammer. I have done it hundreds of times but no two ever seem to cooperate in the same fashion.
Best regards!
Jim Peterson
Re: Remington Model 141
Tom!
The video didn't show much but was "on the money" with how to insert the bolt.
Jim!
The video didn't show much but was "on the money" with how to insert the bolt.
Jim!
Jim Peterson
Re: Remington Model 141
Tom!
Got the TG assembly today, if the rest of the rifle is in as good condition then you have a nice piece!
Interesting...........it was indeed missing the "carrier dog spring" but the "carrier dog pin" looked like it had never been tampered with. The good news is that the "pin" came out easily and went back in the just as easy so it was done with "no harm done" to the TG. Sometimes you have to beat the heck out of those to get them out, this was not the case with yours.
I cleaned the channels where the upper/lower fit together and there was a fair amount of dried gunk in them, not a lot but enough that it could hamper the two pieces from sliding back together easily. The guard itself was amazingly clean.
The "carrier dog spring" that I now use are made for me by an outside source and are not originals, yours is the third one I have installed and they seem to work just fine but do seem a bit more stiff. I installed a replacement in one of my M14 Carbines and check it from time to time just to make sure it still has tension, it too is still working fine after several months.
I'll have it back to you priority mail in the morning!
Jim
Got the TG assembly today, if the rest of the rifle is in as good condition then you have a nice piece!
Interesting...........it was indeed missing the "carrier dog spring" but the "carrier dog pin" looked like it had never been tampered with. The good news is that the "pin" came out easily and went back in the just as easy so it was done with "no harm done" to the TG. Sometimes you have to beat the heck out of those to get them out, this was not the case with yours.
I cleaned the channels where the upper/lower fit together and there was a fair amount of dried gunk in them, not a lot but enough that it could hamper the two pieces from sliding back together easily. The guard itself was amazingly clean.
The "carrier dog spring" that I now use are made for me by an outside source and are not originals, yours is the third one I have installed and they seem to work just fine but do seem a bit more stiff. I installed a replacement in one of my M14 Carbines and check it from time to time just to make sure it still has tension, it too is still working fine after several months.
I'll have it back to you priority mail in the morning!
Jim
Jim Peterson