1894 Markings

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Whughett
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Joined: Fri May 24, 2019 8:30 am

1894 Markings

Post by Whughett » Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:28 pm

I've be looking thru the pages on this forum and from them gathered information on this 1894.
What I know is limited to: Its a "b" grade with ejectors. It has two sets of barrels, one ordnance steel one Damascus. The barrel lumps are marked with pellet counts, serial numbers match on all the parts.

What I'd like to know:
Serial number P138705, year of manufacture.
The two barrels are marked different, IE, Steel barrel, R E D5, Damascus B E Y, both have 3 "hash marks" over these vertical string of letters and the Damascus has a small anchor over the hash marks. This anchor appears elsewhere on parts also. The letter 'Q" appears in different locations.
Are these stamps known, D5, Y, Q, Anchor symbol, the hash marks.

The rather ugly recoil pad is my handy work, the stock had been cut to 12inches LOP and I wanted to bring it out to 14 inches.

Bought this gun at a show 30 years ago for $200 with the intention of having it restored , that didn't happen and it set in the safe. thought it might be useful for upland game hunting and just shooing a few rounds off I've loaded up black powder shells, it locks up tight, shoots a good pattern with square 1oz loads, the bores are bright and beyond the loss of most of its blued look there is no rusting or pitting.
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Researcher
Posts: 947
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2003 11:06 pm
Location: Washington and Alaska

Re: 1894 Markings

Post by Researcher » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:41 pm

A gun with the serial number P138705 would be from the clean-up and sell off of all break action guns to Norvelle-Shapleigh Hardware Company of St Louis during 1910. I don't see a serial number on the barrel flats of the /// B E Y Damascus barrels. The serial number on the /// R E D5 barrels is on the left barrel flat. Serial numbers on barrels for Remington Model 1894 Hammerless Doubles are normally found on the right barrel flat? The checkering pattern on the grip is the A-quality pattern. Normally a B-Quality checkering pattern has the little extra point in the middle --
B-quality stock..jpg
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You might want to unscrew the trigger guard and see the serial number stamped on the stock --
P133596 05.JPG
P133596 05.JPG (452 KiB) Viewed 989 times
Are the /// R E D5 steel barrels marked ORDNANCE on the tops? You only pictured one forearm. Normally a "factory" two-barrel set would have a forearm for each set, and under the serial number on the barrel flat and on the forearm iron would be a 1 or 2.
131861 13.jpg
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Researcher
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Re: 1894 Markings

Post by Researcher » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:07 pm

and just shooing a few rounds off I've loaded up black powder shells, it locks up tight, shoots a good pattern with square 1oz loads, the bores are bright and beyond the loss of most of its blued look there is no rusting or pitting.
Why the mess of black powder?

From the time the Remington Hammerless Double was introduced in the October 1894 Remington Arms Co. catalog, all Remington double were guaranteed for nitro powders.
1894 Catalog intro page.jpeg
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The 1909 Remington Arms Co. catalog was the last to show the Remington Hammerless Doubles. Here is the B-quality guns from the 1909 catalog --
1909 Catalog pg 20 B-qualities.jpeg
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1909 Catalog pg 21 B-qualities.jpeg
1909 Catalog pg 21 B-qualities.jpeg (470 KiB) Viewed 985 times
During most of the time the Remington Hammerless Double was being built and sold, the heaviest 12-gauge loads our North American ammunition companies offered were 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite pushing 1 1/4 ounces of shot. Those loads developed pressures above modern day SAAMI specs, though not the velocity of modern loads.

Researcher
Posts: 947
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2003 11:06 pm
Location: Washington and Alaska

Re: 1894 Markings

Post by Researcher » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:57 am

Looking through my file of Remington Hammerless Double pictures I found pictures of BE-Grade P138704 --
P138704 BE-Grade 01.jpg
P138704 BE-Grade 01.jpg (55.33 KiB) Viewed 979 times
P138704 BE-Grade 02.jpg
P138704 BE-Grade 02.jpg (55.22 KiB) Viewed 979 times

Whughett
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri May 24, 2019 8:30 am

Re: 1894 Markings

Post by Whughett » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:23 am

Researcher:
Thank you for the replies and the time spent. I have been unable to see this post in the normal listing. when I look under my user management I can bring it up on cell phone or computer.

The Damascus set of barrels are most likely the original set of barrels. The single digit 1 and 2 are absent on either set of barrels. The serial number on the Damascus is where it should be, on the right side flat under the lump My poor quality photos don't show it. The font and size of stamp match what's on the forearm, The steel barrels serial number however is on the left barrel
flat and its a different stamp altogether. Somewhere along the line it appears the second set of barrels where acquired, and fitted, anyone could have stamped the serial number I suppose. All other markings on that barrel appear to be Remingtons. Only one forearm came with the gun.

The serial number on the stock is stamped under the trigger guard, its barley legible but there. Its rather remarkable that you would have photos of the gun that was one gun ahead of this one, by its serial number.

Looking through my collection of gun books I found I have Charles Stemmers book, Remington Doubles.
My bad, was on the verge of ordering a copy and thought to check my meager library first. Poor memory I guess.

As to black powder. It was in deference to the old guns age originally, but I also shoot a lot of percussion revolvers and cleaning up after is second nature. I just like the flash, boom and smoke.

On another forum one responder pointed out that until the mid 1920's 12 gage shot guns used 2 5/8 shells, and reading thru Semmers book there is listed in one chapter the shell lengths for the various gages. I was not aware of this. Perhaps another reason to stick to low velocity low pressure loads.
Harvey

Researcher
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Re: 1894 Markings

Post by Researcher » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:06 pm

Virtually from the beginning of cartridge shotguns the shells were offered in a plethora of lengths. In the years the Remington Hammerless Double was in production, our North American ammunition manufacturers offered 12-gauge paper shells in 2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3 & 3 1/4 inch lengths and 16-gauges in 2 9/16, 2 3/4, 2 7/8 & 3 inch lengths. Likewise the 20-gauge was offered in 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 7/8 & 3-inch lengths and the 28-gauge in 2 1/2 and 2 7/8 inch Lengths. In the late 1890s and the early 20th Century one could get smokeless powder 12-gauge 1 1/4 ounce loads in the 2 5/8 inch case. Normally, Remington Arms Co. targeted their 12-gauge Remington Hammerless Doubles with 2 5/8 inch shells with a load of 3 drams of bulk smokeless powder, or 24 grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite pushing 1 1/4 ounce of #8 shot. This was load No. 8 in the UMC SMOKELESS, TRAP & ARROW shell, and Load No. X8 in the UMC NITRO CLUB shell.
131920 01 front.jpeg
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Around the 1906-7 time frame our North American ammunition companies began limiting the 2 5/8 inch 12-gauge shells to 1 1/8 ounce. From the 1907 UMC catalog --
1907 NITRO CLUB loads.jpeg
1907 NITRO CLUB loads.jpeg (353.94 KiB) Viewed 787 times
However, Remington must have had a large supply of the older 2 5/8 inch shells because they never changed their hang tags.

When a Remington Hammerless Double was ordered with longer chambers they were marked just forward of the barrel flats like this --
121252 DEO-Grade 07 2 7-8 inch chamber marking.jpg
121252 DEO-Grade 07 2 7-8 inch chamber marking.jpg (344.13 KiB) Viewed 787 times

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