Factory Engraved Remington Model 32F

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GeneM
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:57 am

Factory Engraved Remington Model 32F

Post by GeneM »

The RSA Research Team found a photograph of a factory presentation Remington Model 32 F grade with gold inlays in the Remington Factory Archives in ilion, NY . It is engraved on the gold grip cap - Presented to J. E. Brennan by the Remington Arms Co. Inc. Commemorating 36 years Faithful Service 1896 - 1932. It is serial number 1024. No engraver is noted but the only factory engravers at the time were Joe Loy - Master Engraver and foreman of Department 55 - Checkering and Engraving Shop, Anda Hardy and Simeon Rogers. Simeon passed away June 27, 1933 after an accident. Most likely it was engraved by Joe Loy.
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GeneM
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Re: Factory Engraved Remington Model 32F

Post by GeneM »

The Remington Society Research Team uncovered some information about the prewar engravers.

The Runges -Robert R, (father) and Robert P. (son) did not come to Ilion, NY until late 1937 when Remington moved production of Parker shotguns to the main Remington plant there. Remington acquired Parker shotguns June 1, 1934. Robert P. or Bob (son) would have been an apprentice or at most a journeyman engraver when he moved to Ilion. Robert R.(father) would have been a master engraver on the same level as Joe Loy when he moved to Ilion. He most likely worked on the Parker shotguns being made in Ilion.

Carl Ennis graduated from Ilion High School in 1933 and went to work as a night security guard at Remington August 27, 1934. He was offered an engraving apprenticeship under Joe Loy some time in 1935 and left Remington in late 1936 or early 1937 to continue his training at Parker Gun Works in Meriden, CT. He returned six months later. He would have been an apprentice or at most a journeyman engraver when he returned.

Joe Loy remained foreman of the checkering and engraving department until his retirement from Remington May 1, 1940. According to an internal Remington memo 1/30/1970 from Sam Alvis, Remington Museum Curator, Carl Ennis reported that Joe Loy did most of the high grade Model 32s. Remington did send some special order Model 32s to the west coast to be inlaid with gold in standard, pink or green. At that time they did have some photos of the Clark Gable and Gary Cooper M32s. We have not located those photos yet.
Researcher
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Re: Factory Engraved Remington Model 32F

Post by Researcher »

Great information Gene. Thank you. The Model 32 Clark Gable is holding here looks pretty standard --

Image

July 1939, National Sportsman
Kman-5455
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Re: Factory Engraved Remington Model 32F

Post by Kman-5455 »

Gene I must question the dates quoted for Carl Ennis. The reason I question the dates is that I have a 32F signed by Ennis ('E') and validated by Babe Del Grego as being original. The serial number on the gun is 2805 making it a late 1936 manufacture date. That would mean Ennis engraved it late 1936 or early 1937. I don't believe Remington would allow a trainee engrave there top end over/under. I also doubt Loy would have allowed Ennis to put his initial on a gun he didn't engrave. Also on page 118 of Michael McIntosh's book BEST GUNS there are picture of 32F engravings that were by Carl Ennis dated 1938.

If you look carefully on the receiver side view there is a small 'E' in the larger scroll toward the bottom border.
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telluride
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Re: Factory Engraved Remington Model 32F

Post by telluride »

Thanks for the post. I think all fans of the 32 know that the records of that era leave something too be desired, at least as far is production is concerned. I have read several places that Remington engravers could not sign their work until post war. I wonder if "sneaking" an initial into the work was the single finger salute to the execs? The McIntosh books, 10 Best Shotguns Ever Made in America, and his revised book, Best Shotguns, both have engraved 32 photos, but are different in each book. Hopefully, we will all continue collecting and sharing whatever info we have, and by sorting through it all we can fill in the missing history. I just stated collecting these classics recently, but have 6 now, 4 being multi-barrel sets, and also buying every old catalog, ads, or articles I can lay my hands on and will gladly share whatever I have with those of us that appreciate this classic. Keep on sharing. Semper Fi.
GeneM
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Re: Factory Engraved Remington Model 32F

Post by GeneM »

The questions about Ennis' Remington service are valid so I went back to the original source documents. These are the Remington plant newsletters - The Remington Action. The first, from the Remington Archives, is from the February 1960 issue where Carl receives his 25 year pin. It notes he started August 27, 1934 and had a short break in service as his 25 years are completed February 20, 1960. The second, from Paula Burns, Carl's daughter, is from the July 1942 issue when he was introduced as the artist behind the motivational posters. It notes that he started as a night clerk, promoted to Tabulating Room then moved to Parker, Meridan, CT to train as an engraving apprentice, Remington moved Parker to Ilion in late 1937 and Ennis moved back to Ilion. He was promoted to sub-foreman of the Checkering Room in 1941 - the article implies that he moved back to Ilion in 1941. Paula has an engraved steel block by Carl that is dated Nov. 1937 which is consistent with the move of Parker to Ilion. The front shows the talent that Carl had early in his career.
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GeneM
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Re: Factory Engraved Remington Model 32F

Post by GeneM »

I missed posting the back of the steel block.
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Kman-5455
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Re: Factory Engraved Remington Model 32F

Post by Kman-5455 »

Gene thanks for the response it was truly helpful. With that information my 32F was built in late 1936 but engraved by Ennis in 1937 when he came back to Ilion.
GeneM
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Re: Factory Engraved Remington Model 32F

Post by GeneM »

Bob Runge was interviewed in an article that was reprinted in the 4th Quarter 2001 RSA Journal. On p.18 there is a picture of a young Bob as an apprentice engraver in the Remington, Ilion, NY plant in 1938. There is also a quote from Bob on the same page - "There was Joe Loy of Ithaca, who eventually came to Ilion, and was very much an elitist. He declined apprentices, and would routinely cover his work with a cloth when anyone approached his bench." It is speculation on my part but I wonder if Carl had to go to Meriden to learn engraving under Robert Runge Sr. Parker's master engraver. Both Bob, who started at Parker July 16, 1934, and Carl, who started engraving later, would have been engraving apprentices under Robert Runge. Apprenticeships were and still are several years in length. Bob spoke about his duties as an apprentice included doing cutaway scroll. It is most likely that he would do scroll and then "D" grades before being allowed to do an entire "F" grade. Joe Loy was the foreman assigning work and top level work would have been given to himself, Anda Hardy or Robert Runge. The two apprentices would be doing lesser level work. Loy retired May 1, 1940 and Carl was promoted to sub-foreman in 1941. Again speculation and as talented as Carl was, I doubt that he did "F" grade guns while Loy was in charge.

Paula Burns, Carl's daughter, found a couple of 8 x 10 sketches on cardboard Carl did while in High School. One, dated 1932, is a pencil drawing of a stone house and the other, dated 1933, is a crayon sketch of a hunter resting by his cabin with his dog. Showed them to a professional artist friend and she was amazed that they were done by a high school student with no advanced training.
GeneM
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Re: Factory Engraved Remington Model 32F

Post by GeneM »

Here are the sketches Carl Ennis did in 1932 and 1933. He showed his talent even then.
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Kman-5455
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Re: Factory Engraved Remington Model 32F

Post by Kman-5455 »

In the Double Gun Journal Autumn 2000 Kevin McCormack interviewed Bob Runge wherein Bob said,

"When I started work my duties included everything from polishing screws to test firing completed guns prior to shipment. As I came along in the trade, I was started on doing cutaway scroll, as my father had done when he was a young apprentice. He was a little skeptical at first that I'd turn out to be much of an engraver, but I kept at it , with my father as my mentor. He was critical but a great teacher, and I think he really believed in me because I believed in myself. He retired from Remington in 1946 and died in Ilion, New York in 1965. You can fairly say he was one of the great ones. He was in demand as an engraver before he came to work for Parker Brothers, and moved around a lot during the early 1900s, as many of his contemporaries did. He worked for Ithaca at Corning, New York, for a while, and even worked at the Hollenbeck Gun Company in West Virginia for a time, engraving their famous 3-barrel guns. He knew and was friends with most of the finest engravers of his time, some of whom achieved almost legendary status through their work. Their was Joe Loy of Ithaca, who eventually came to Ilion, and was very much an elitist. He declined apprentices, and would routinely cover his work with a cloth when anyone approached his bench. Ed Laytham was also originally an Ithaca engraver who came to Ilion, and wound up finishing a lot of the work Rudolph Kornbath had left on his bench after he had his stroke, which ended his career. Joseph Leidtke apprenticed at Meriden with Parker Brothers, as did Pat Courtney, Carlton Ennis did too, and was one of the engravers who came to Ilion when Remington decided to move the production of the Parker gun from Meriden to Ilion in 1937."

Based on the article which I will not retype in its entirety Bob's dad Robert R. Runge was a master engraver and did take the transfer from Meriden to Ilion where he and Joe Loy were peers. By 1937 Bob had been apprenticed for over three years and was now on his own engraving both Parker and Remington guns. Also notice above where Bob refers to Carlton Ennis as having apprenticed at Parker Guns and that he was one of the engravers who came to Ilion when Remington decided to move production. Based on the above I agree with your suggestion that because Loy was such an elitist and didn't take apprentices that Remington shipped Carlton Ennis to Meriden to finish his apprenticeship under Robert R. Runge and then shipped back to Ilion as an engraver. I would speculate that Robert R. Runge, Bob Runge and Carlton Ennis all worked on Remington graded guns under the supervision of Joe Loy as early as 1937. I have two graded guns that are of the 1937/1938 vintage with Ennis signature ('E') and an other by Robert R Runge ("RRR') engraved on them.
Last edited by Kman-5455 on Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kman-5455
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Re: Factory Engraved Remington Model 32F

Post by Kman-5455 »

In the Double Gun Journal Autumn 2000 Kevin McCormack interviewed Bob Runge wherein Bob said,

"When I started work my duties included everything from polishing screws to test firing completed guns prior to shipment. As I came along in the trade, I was started on doing cutaway scroll, as my father had done when he was a young apprentice. He was a little skeptical at first that I'd turn out to be much of an engraver, but I kept at it , with my father as my mentor. He was critical but a great teacher, and I think he really believed in me because I believed in myself. He retired from Remington in 1946 and died in Ilion, New York in 1965. You can fairly say he was one of the great ones. He was in demand as an engraver before he came to work for Parker Brothers, and moved around a lot during the early 1900s, as many of his contemporaries did. He worked for Ithaca at Corning, New York, for a while, and even worked at the Hollenbeck Gun Company in West Virginia for a time, engraving their famous 3-barrel guns. He knew and was friends with most of the finest engravers of his time, some of whom achieved almost legendary status through their work. Their was Joe Loy of Ithaca, who eventually came to Ilion, and was very much an elitist. He declined apprentices, and would routinely cover his work with a cloth when anyone approached his bench. Ed Laytham was also originally an Ithaca engraver who came to Ilion, and wound up finishing a lot of the work Rudolph Kornbath had left on his bench after he had his stroke, which ended his career. Joseph Leidtke apprenticed at Meriden with Parker Brothers, as did Pat Courtney, Carlton Ennis did too, and was one of the engravers who came to Ilion when Remington decided to move the production of the Parker gun from Meriden to Ilion in 1937."

Based on the article which I will not retype in its entirety Bob's dad Robert R. Runge was a master engraver and did take the transfer from Meriden to Ilion where he and Joe Loy were peers. By 1937 Bob had been apprenticed for over three years and was now on his own engraving both Parker and Remington guns. Also notice above where Bob refers to Carlton Ennis as having apprenticed at Parker Guns and that he was one of the engravers who came to Ilion when Remington decided to move production. Based on the above I agree with your suggestion that Remington shipped Carlton Ennis to Meriden to start his engraving apprenticeship under Robert R. Runge. I would speculate that Robert R. Runge, Bob Runge and Carlton Ennis all worked on Remington graded guns under the supervision of Joe Loy as early as 1937. I have two graded guns that are of the 1937/1938 vintage with Ennis signature ('E') and an other by Robert R Runge ("RRR') engraved on them. Both guns (Model 32s) are original and period specific.
GeneM
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Re: Factory Engraved Remington Model 32F

Post by GeneM »

That was the Double Gun Journal article that was reprinted in the Remington Society Journal. Robert R. Runge was appointed chief engraver at Parker in 1931. It must have been interesting to have two master engravers with their egos on staff.

The group working on the Remington Engravers book are trying to establish timelines of service for each of the engravers from 1900 on. Carl Ennis has a six month break in service apprenticing at Parker in 1937 and as noted we finally confirmed the Parker connection in print. Up to now we only had word of mouth. Remington records only show a six month break in service. It is interesting as Remington credited Parker employees Remington service from the day Remington acquired Parker.

It is very rare to see prewar engraved Remingtons signed by the engraver. If possible could you post a picture of the RRR signature as we have not seen one by Runge sr.
Kman-5455
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Re: Factory Engraved Remington Model 32F

Post by Kman-5455 »

Gene,

I'll get pictures of the RRR gun early in 2015 and post them.

As an aside I have to respectfully question the engraving researchers conclusion that prior to 1945s Remington Engravers did not sign their work. I reference an article in DGJ Volume 8 Issue 4 Winter 1997 "The Preeminent EE Remington" wherein the Author Charles Semmer states on page 170:

"Studying the fine scroll and especially the detail of the game birds, leaves the impression that this engraving may have been done by Joseph Loy. We know from records that he worked for Remington starting in 1984. Engraving on this presentation gun closely resembles the work of two other Model 1894s that are signed by Loy."

Even though Remington may have had a pre-1945 guideline that engravers not sign their work I can assure you that on high grade guns artist did sometimes carve their initials.

Regards
GeneM
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:57 am

Re: Factory Engraved Remington Model 32F

Post by GeneM »

Charles Semmer showed us how Joy Loy worked his initials into the engraving pattern and also in his book on p.179. They were well hidden in the scroll.
One of the more interesting items that have turned up are some plaster casts in Babe's collection. Apparently Remington engravers experimented with using plaster to record their work. They had used india ink squeezed into the engraving then rolled on oilcloth to produce "engraving pulls" and continued with this practice into the 1970s. It is messy and many of the "pulls" we have seen are wrinkled from drying under the cellophane used to separate the various "pulls".
This bottom cast is from M32 serial number 999, the side casts are not IDed as from this M32 but the engraving pattern is similar. We have looked at the original casts for initials but have not found any.
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