Model 14 Loading Door and Carrier Question

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RaleighReloader
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:04 pm

Model 14 Loading Door and Carrier Question

Post by RaleighReloader »

Hello everyone,

I'm troubleshooting a loading problem on my Model 14 and could use a little help.

Here's what happens: when I load factory Remington ammo in the magazine and cycle the action back, the cartridge seems to get stuck on the carrier lever. I'm not sure if the carrier lever is supposed to stay up permanently (it is spring loaded after all), or if there's something that lowers it when the action is cycling back ... but as it is, the back of the cartridge ends up resting against the two little ridges in the action bar. If I gently use a screwdriver to press down on the back of the cartridge (in other words, compressing the carrier lever spring a bit more), the cartridge will slip under the two ridges in the action bar, slide back another eighth of an inch or so, to the back of the action bar.

Here's the second problem. Even if I get this far (where the action bar is cycled back fully and the bullet is ready to slide up into the breech block), the magazine follower is still pressing against the nose of the bullet. It appears that the follower should be stopped by the loading door, but I can't figure out what is supposed to push the loading door up to do this. Or, if there's some problem with the follower itself (even though it appears to be fine).

If I use a small screwdriver to push the follower up into the magazine tube and I simultaneously close the action, the cartridge snaps up into the breech block exactly as it's supposed to, and I can fire the weapon just fine.

I'm guessing someone here has seen these problems, and I'm hoping a little guidance will help me work out these kinks in this very straight shooting rifle.

Cheers,
Mike
nambujim
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Re: Model 14 Loading Door and Carrier Question

Post by nambujim »

For your first problem I'm guessing the carrier dog is not functioning properly. It is the little flippy thingy just in front of the trigger array in the trigger guard. The "dog" should readily flip back/forth with some enthusiasm, it is "the" part that activates the carrier so if it is non-functioning or sluggish you will get erratic or poor feed.

Your second problem is not a problem, the magazine follower should come to rest with about 3/8 of an inch showing under the loading door. The nose of the bullet is used to push it back when loading and yes it is unusual but it was the latest in 1912 technology. This Model was invented by John Pedersen and to say John made things complicated would be an understatement but from your description the follower is in the proper place.

Back to problem #1, the metal used on the carrier dog spring was probably the best at the time and most Model 14's have the original in place but they all have to be weak and in need of replacement ............ of course a decent replacement spring is not readily available from any of the normal parts outlets so I have them made out of 4140 Wire ........... they will last 10 lifetimes.

If you want to post a picture of your loading gate showing where the follower is, I could confirm its in the correct place but think you're in good shape. A far bigger problem is when the follower passes right by the gate and ends up inside the receiver, this is caused by a well-worn undersize follower.

.................and keep using factory ammo OR be sure to use ONLY round nose bullets when reloading. OACL is critical with these rifles so the shorter the better, set your dies using a factory round AND always use a factory crimp die.

Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC
Jim Peterson
RaleighReloader
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Re: Model 14 Loading Door and Carrier Question

Post by RaleighReloader »

Thanks Jim. As always, you're a trove of knowledge about these guns and I appreciate your willingness to share.

I pulled the carrier dog down on my 14, and here's what I found. The carrier dog was able to flop back and forth fine; there's about 70 or 80 degrees of "free play" before the dog starts to load the spring on either side. But: the dog was not able to move completely freely (say, by the force of gravity) through its range of free motion. It is as if there is something binding against it.

I pulled the pin out and there's no problem with the pin or the dog itself ... what it looks like is the wire spring is bent, such that when you're looking down at the assembly, it's obvious that it's pressing against the side of the dog. As I said before, this means that the dog is stiff enough that it won't move by gravity alone, but rather that it needs to be pushed. I can easily do it with one finger ... but I don't know if that's enough strain on it to keep the rest of the action from working properly.

It's tough to talk about this in non-quantifiable terms, so here's the next best thing ... a few photos of the spring.

Image

Image

Thoughts? Is it worth putting a new spring in to see if that alleviates the problem? The dog itself looks fine; no obvious damage or wear on it.

Mike
nambujim
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Re: Model 14 Loading Door and Carrier Question

Post by nambujim »

Mike!

It's never the dog, it's almost always the spring. The wire used for the springs 65-103 years ago (the span of 14/141) production was probably the best available but pretty much sucks. Like I stated, when the spring is held all the way down on either side of the dog it should flip back with enough force to "sting" the back of your thumbnail. If it simply flops back/forth or is sort of stuck in position...........it is not working or working so poorly as to provide you with erratic and inconsistent loading.

A proper functioning dog with a good spring is essential to the feed on these rifles. There isn't too much that can go wrong with the carrier itself, the main problems being the channel gets caked with dried oil and/or the little friction plunger is missing, worn, or is dragging. The carrier should work freely in the channel with just the right amount of "drag" so it isn't sloppy.

About 80-85% of all feed problems on the Model 14/141 are caused by the ammunition, the rest of the time it's usually the carrier dog spring. I have mine made for me out of 4140 wire that will last several lifetimes but they don't come cheap. I have tried to straighten or correct the original wire spring with nothing in the way of success, it seems once they are bent or kinked they're pretty much useless.

................and "yeah" you probably need to replace yours!!!!!

Behave!

Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC
Jim Peterson
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Re: Model 14 Loading Door and Carrier Question

Post by adirondack »

My question is on the action bar cover. mine has the tab broken off. replacement is impossible to find. so as long as the tab keeps the cartridge stop on place is the rest just a cover? will the rifle work properly.
nambujim
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Re: Model 14 Loading Door and Carrier Question

Post by nambujim »

Yes, the tab will keep the stop in place and the rifle should work just fine.

I have had an early action bar cover for sale on Gunbroker for a couple of months, and I do have a few others.....................but they aren't cheap. The one on GB I think is $56 and should fit rifles under about serial 35,000 and maybe a bit higher.

Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC
Jim Peterson
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Re: Model 14 Loading Door and Carrier Question

Post by adirondack »

Jim i saw yours on GB it looks a bit different. my1936 sn#100877 i would gladly pay asking price. Just want to be sure it will work... Mine is grooved at the front with a slight raise to the left side. I could post a pic if necessary. And THANK YOU for the response. Got stuck with a rifle of GB..was sold as excellent condition by a gun smith! broken action bar cover and missing cartridge stop. Found the cartridge stop at Jack First i hope the fitting of it is easy. Hopefully the problems stop there.
nambujim
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Re: Model 14 Loading Door and Carrier Question

Post by nambujim »

Let me say this...........Jack First knows "Jack Sh***" about cartridge stops or almost anything Model 14 or 141 related. Been messing with these for a VERY long time and unless the stop fits right off, you are out of luck BUT with that said however the Model 141 is easier in that they all use the "large" stop and those Marked with a 1 or 2 are the most common. Your rifle should use a large stop but in that serial range things can be very iffy. My personal feeling is that any attempt to modify or fit a stop results only in a ruined stop, would love to have seen how they did it at the factory on those early guns.

Your action bar cover sounds like a smooth one or one with a partial groove down the middle, only a picture will tell me.

Yeah, big difference as to what someone describes as an excellent piece, and what it really is.

Behave!

Jim
Jim Peterson
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Re: Model 14 Loading Door and Carrier Question

Post by adirondack »

Jim had a typo on my earlier post. Model 14 barrel code CT dated to may of 1926 serial number 100877. If the stop is incorrect where can one be found? I am posting a pic of the Action bar cover.... Site says file to large..but it is basically a flat near the tab end no groove, slight raise on the tab side.
nambujim
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Re: Model 14 Loading Door and Carrier Question

Post by nambujim »

Yeah, you have the more common "smooth" action bar cover that was standard from about serial 35-38,000 until the one they used on the 141.................there was one in between that they used on the very early 141's. As far as the stop goes, try the one you got from Jack First (or as I refer to them as Jack Last), and if it doesn't work we go from there.

My way of fitting them is to lay out all my stops on the bench (maybe 45 or so), then test each one to make sure they fit in the slot which will in some cases eliminate half of them. I then try each of the remaining, one at a time. Yours should use a larger stop and you will find them with numbered 0, 1, 2, 3, and some have no marking at all. The most common are in order 1,2, blank, 0, & 3. I would think yours should take a 1 or 2. The small stops were not numbered.

Good luck
Jim Peterson
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Re: Model 14 Loading Door and Carrier Question

Post by adirondack »

O.K. i'm waiting for the stop, sounds like a needle in a hay stack chance. As for the action bar cover. Are you willing to part with one? I surely would appreciate it. Your knowledge is priceless.. lol, but put one on the Bar cover and i'm in.
adirondack
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Re: Model 14 Loading Door and Carrier Question

Post by adirondack »

Leroys ramblings14/141 has a cartridge stop fitting article with original factory tools. Seem "go" and a "no go" gauges were used. You would be a better judge of the article than me. But the original tools are pictured.
nambujim
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Re: Model 14 Loading Door and Carrier Question

Post by nambujim »

With the serial of your rifle and they send you a large "stop" your chances are about 1 in 3, much worse with older rifles. Just pray its a large stop with a 1 or 2 on it.

I do have an extra smooth action bar cover, must send them in a small box priority mail or they will get crushed. Have no idea what rifle it came off of but it must have been pretty bad for me to part it out. $70 plus postage..............now aren't you sorry you bought that clunker? You can contact me direct at: nambujim@charlotte.twcbc.com

You won't hurt my feelings if the price is too high.

Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC
Go Cubbies.............we might just make it to game seven!
Jim Peterson
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Re: Model 14 Loading Door and Carrier Question

Post by adirondack »

O.K. i'll be in touch.. no Cubs fan discount!..lol
adirondack
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Re: Model 14 Loading Door and Carrier Question

Post by adirondack »

Jim..got the cartridge stop from Jack First. works great, factory ammo as well as handloads. Crimp will be required. Awaiting the action bar cover. Then the old dog will finally hunt!
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