MODEL 14 & 141 RELOADING/CRIMPING / Bulletin #9

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nambujim
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MODEL 14 & 141 RELOADING/CRIMPING / Bulletin #9

Post by nambujim »

I have been reloading since I was ten years old and have been loading all of the calibers for these rifles for in excess of 30 years, that doesn't make me smart and it surely doesn't make me an authority.

I have been using Redding factory crimp style dies on both the 44-40 & 38-40 for use in the Model 14-1/2 for some time but had yet to try something similar with the rifle calibers. Redding dies give a good crimp, they refer to it as a "profile" crimp but let us be honest in that the slam/banging cartridges take going through these old rifles is like none other.

So just a short time back I went looking for a "factory crimp" die that would work on "each" of the rifle calibers but found that while Lee made one for the 30-30 (can be used for the .30 Remington) and indeed do make one for the .35 Remington, nothing was available for the .25 or .32 Remington.

When I come to a dead end I email my two long suffering friends (Tom Hemphill & Ken Blauch) who in addition to being experienced hunters, are experienced in reloading these calibers, are authorities in their own right on these rifles, and try to keep me honest.

Hemphill advised he has been using Lee "factory crimp" dies on all the rifle calibers for years to which I respond "how can that be, they don't make them". Tom's exact response was "you've been saying for years that Ken is twice as smart as us, he figured it out years ago".

Like the solution to many problems the answer was hiding from me in plain sight, Ken being a machinist by trade in addition to being bloody darn smart realized the available Lee dies had some latitude. The solution is that you can also use the 30-30 die on the .32 Remington and the .243 die on the .25 Remington and both Ken and Tom have been doing it for years...damn them!

I got on the phone to Midway last Friday and ordered the .243 factory crimp die, two of the 30-30 dies, and of course the .35 Remington die the latter of which is on backorder but the others arrived today. I hate messing with dies and once I set them I don't ever want to mess with them again so I use a separate "factory crimp die" 30-30 die for the .30 Remington & the .32. I don't know and have never liked the "locking ring" on the Lee dies so I replaced it with a steel ring that has the built in set-screw (neither Tom nor Ken do that).

I used the dummy rounds I make up to test loading/feeding of rifles I'm working on to set the dies rather than mess up nice loaded rounds. Setting them up was easy, it did take 3-4 adjustments before I got the crimp I liked, and in short order had all my loaded ammunition "factory crimped".

After Ken/Tom gave me all the info they could on the subject, Ken then left me with a parting shot that essentially said "now you have to post your results on the forum", I don't know for sure but I think he had a big smile on his face and was laughing when he sent me that message.

Anyhow............factory crimp is essential for 38-40 & 44-40 make no mistake about it. The factory crimp dies from Lee are inexpensive, easy to use, and while not "essential" for the rifle calibers can do nothing but make your Model 14/141 digest ammunition better!!!

I hadn't been having any trouble with my reloads working but the older rifles are really fussy about the ammunition they use, these dies have to help, and as Tom Hemphill put it "the way these rifles beat on bullets, if you don't have a factory crimp the bullet may well retreat into the case" so why take the chance.

In the process of "factory crimping" my rounds I again ran across the problem with WRA or W/W brass in that the thickness of the rim is such that they will not always readily fit in a normal .30 Remington shell holder. This is the case with all the new Jamison brass I have tried and in both cases I have to resort to using the shell holder for .38 Special. I don't know for certain but I agree with Ken Blauch when he told me several years ago, "Remington brass works better in these rifles". The thicker rim can't possibly be a benefit in either the Model 14 or 141, probably doesn't affect their use in the Model 8 or 81.

For information, my opinion, and I kept my promise to Ken to make this posting!

Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC
Jim Peterson
The Gamemaster
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Re: MODEL 14 & 141 RELOADING/CRIMPING / Bulletin #9

Post by The Gamemaster »

Crimping ammo shortens case life..

A 30 / 32 / 35 Remington rifle has practically no recoil...

The key is to stay within factory reccomendations in the reloading manual for maximum chamber pressure / powder / primer and mininum case length...

Keeping the case as long as possible allows you some leeway as per how much brass you have to use for the crimp.

Usually the neck will crack after just 3 reloads from over working the brass when you use a hard crimp..
umcpumpgun
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Re: MODEL 14 & 141 RELOADING/CRIMPING / Bulletin #9

Post by umcpumpgun »

I agree that the 25/30/32/&35 Rem. calibers don't have much recoil,but does hace a stout magazine spring. Also when one bumps or drags on the edge of the chamber the crimp can be very important. I agree factory crimps on these guns are always a bonus. It doesn't take long before any extra brass lenght can cause problems. The first time you try a roll crimp on these ctgs. that aren't the same lenght,esp on the 38& 44 you will have brass that resembles an accordian.
CWarmouth
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Re: MODEL 14 & 141 RELOADING/CRIMPING / Bulletin #9

Post by CWarmouth »

Jim - Hold on now! I'm pretty sure you told me about using the 243 die to crimp the 25 Rem rounds a couple years ago. That's how long I have been doing it and I know I am not smart enough to figure that out on my own and I don't know anyone who would have told me that. I think it is true that you have forgotten more about these guns than most of us will ever know. But then again, maybe it was Tom who told me.
nambujim
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Re: MODEL 14 & 141 RELOADING/CRIMPING / Bulletin #9

Post by nambujim »

Carl!
You are a "hoot" and always enjoy your comments, in this case we'll blame Tom Hemphill. I blame Tom for anything & everything, he's the one that got me to start answering questions on the forum and he is the one who told you about the .243 die..............but I think he got the lead from Ken Blauch before that. We all owe a lot to Tom & Ken with respect to info on the Model 14, 141, and 25 but if anything goes wrong or I give bad advice I find it convenient to blame Hemphill.

Merry Christmas to all!

Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC
Jim Peterson
Weithy
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Re: MODEL 14 & 141 RELOADING/CRIMPING / Bulletin #9

Post by Weithy »

Jim,
You seem like you're the person to ask about reloading the .32 Remington. My aunt gave me a model 14 in .32 Remington that she, my uncle and mom all shot deer with. I'm trying to keep the tradition going. I have purchased some Remington brass and increased the neck size. I loaded the brass with Hornady 170 gr flat points. The problem that I'm having is that When the case is crimped at the cannelure the oal is 2.565 which is too long for the oal. The real problem is that the rifle won't cycle anything longer than 2.435. I was trying to find a bullet with a shorter metplat but can't find anything but cast lead. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Eric
Weithy
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Re: MODEL 14 & 141 RELOADING/CRIMPING / Bulletin #9

Post by Weithy »

Jim,
You seem to be the one answer my question. My aunt gave me a model 14 in .32 rem. I necked up some new .30 rem brass. I'm using Hornady 170 gr flat points. When I crimp these bullets at the cannelure the oal length is 2.565 which is .011 too long. I really didn't think that this would be a problem but it is. In fact, the rifle won't cycle the shells until the bullet is seated far beyond the cannelure to a oal of 2.430. I found some cast lead bullets that have a shorter metplat but would rather use jacketed bullets. Any suggestions?

Eric
nambujim
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Re: MODEL 14 & 141 RELOADING/CRIMPING / Bulletin #9

Post by nambujim »

Hi!
About 8-9 times on these posts I have said "nothing but ROUND NOSE" bullets will function in these rifles. They were NOT designed for flat/pointed ammuntion although "many" think the spiral magazine was designed to do just that, it wasn't.

If you use flat nose ammunition or your OACL is just a hair over your reloads will not function, if fact they may give you one helluva jam. I set my dies by using old (1960's) factory ammunition, the newer the factory ammunition the shorter the OACL and the better for these rifles.

I am hardly a loading expert but rather have been working on/repairing these old guns for a "long" time, I can repair and/or make a rifle work but its impossible to control what anyone out of my sight does reloading. So get the heck rid of those flat nose bullets, set your dies using an old factory ammunition, and factory crimp with a lee die. It isn't something you are going to perfect overnight because these guns a REALLY fussy about the ammunition you feed through them.

There are aftermarket loadings, the best of which (in my opinion) come from Buffalo Arms in Idaho........170gr RN with new .30 Remington Brass expanded to .32. You could use some of those to set your dies and see just how well they function in your rifle.

Regards!

Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC
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Re: MODEL 14 & 141 RELOADING/CRIMPING / Bulletin #9

Post by Gamemaster32 »

Does anyone have a source for .321" round nose jacketed bullets? All that I've found are the flat-points.

TIA
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Re: MODEL 14 & 141 RELOADING/CRIMPING / Bulletin #9

Post by Gamemaster32 »

The closest I've come to original .32 cal RN configuration appears to be the Speer #2259
Weithy
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Re: MODEL 14 & 141 RELOADING/CRIMPING / Bulletin #9

Post by Weithy »

Thanks guys for the input. I'll get a hold of some Buffalo Arms ammo and see what I can come up with. Thanks for the advice. I'll let you know how things turn out.
Weithy
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Re: MODEL 14 & 141 RELOADING/CRIMPING / Bulletin #9

Post by Weithy »

Jim,
I just checked out the Buffalo Arms web site. They list their .32 Remington loaded with Hornady #3210 flat points. The same bullets that I was trying to use. Also I checked out the Speer bullet and it is also listed as a flat point. Have you ever tried the Buffalo Arms ammo with the flat points? Do you have any sources for round nose jacketed bullets in .321?

Thanks,
Eric
nambujim
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Re: MODEL 14 & 141 RELOADING/CRIMPING / Bulletin #9

Post by nambujim »

Didn't mean to start all sorts of trouble.

In the "for whatever its worth" department I use without difficulty Hornady
.323 170gr RN.........item #3235, ironically the picture on the box is a spire point bullet. They are also listed as 8MM. I have shot the them in several of my Model 14's without difficulty, that's my experience and I have been using them for a good long time but do recall I had a helluva time finding a RN bullet for the .32.

I didn't realize that Buffalo was using RNFP stuff, I will send them a note so they can tell folks they are just fine for the Model 8/81 but not so hot for the 14/141.

Looks like I've caused enough trouble for the day!

Regards!

Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC
Jim Peterson
nambujim
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Re: MODEL 14 & 141 RELOADING/CRIMPING / Bulletin #9

Post by nambujim »

Just moments ago I chatted with Buffalo Arms and the guys were correct in that the only stock they have for .32 Remington is RNFP. I explained the situation, they were very nice, I tried not to sound like I was the 'world authority', and they will look into the matter.

The net result is they will probably make some sort of notation that the RNFP can be readily used in the 8/81, not so good for the 14/141, and hopefully will find a RN bullet to use for the Model 14/141. I did suggest the use of the .323 but these guys are in Idaho, I'm in North Carolina, and I'm confident they want to check things out before doing anything. Buffalo Arms is a "class act", been doing business with them off/on for a very long time.

All of you guys behave out there!

Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC
Jim Peterson
nambujim
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Re: MODEL 14 & 141 RELOADING/CRIMPING / Bulletin #9

Post by nambujim »

Whew! Been a very busy afternoon!

First of all, thanks guys for bringing it to my attention that Buffalo's .32 Remington Ammuniton were RNFP. As stated above I called Buffalo, explained the situation, and they said they would look into it.

The "Boss" of Buffalo Arms just chatted with me for about 45 minutes on the subject but to make a long story short they will continue to sell the RNFP but will note to buyers they are for the Model 8/81.

I can't speak for them but was told that what they will probably do is to use something like the Hornady 8MM/.323 170 grain RN Bullet and size it down to .321 so it will virtually duplicate factory originals. Now that is what I call being "shooter oriented"

I wish I knew how to create a link here for Buffalo Arms but for anyone interested they have .25, .30, and 32 Remington Ammunition for sale, all made with new .30 Remington brass (re-sized up/down as needed).

The website is: www.buffaloarms.com

I was told that their sales of .30 Remington ammunition have been so great that they even reduced the price a scooch because of the volume. They also have a substantial inventory of .30 Remington brass BUT at this time need it for making loaded ammunition. Apparently Remington is going to continue to manufacture the brass but it is a "seasonal" run and at the moment is in short supply......like so many other varieties/calibers of brass.

So my friends that is the latest, stay well & behave!

Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC
Jim Peterson
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