rear sight

Topics related to Pre - 1898 Remington Rifles
171evergreenfkl
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:00 am

rear sight

Post by 171evergreenfkl »

Can someone help me identify the type of rear sight that is mounted on a NGNY style rolling block rifle. The rifle appears to be a private purchase as it bears no New York State inspectors cartouche and is chambered for the 50-70 cartridge. The ladder is calibrated to 1000yrds. and it has a windage adjustable slide. The slide, ramp and ladder all have fine adjustments which may correspond to 1/4 minute of angle. my thought are that it was designed for match competition. Photos attached. Your thoughts.
Attachments
IMG_1957.JPG
IMG_1957.JPG (1.83 MiB) Viewed 4169 times
IMG_1954.JPG
IMG_1954.JPG (2.95 MiB) Viewed 4169 times
IMG_1953.JPG
IMG_1953.JPG (2.58 MiB) Viewed 4169 times
IMG_1952.JPG
IMG_1952.JPG (2.96 MiB) Viewed 4169 times
IMG_1951.JPG
IMG_1951.JPG (2.92 MiB) Viewed 4169 times
oldremguy
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: rear sight

Post by oldremguy »

From the patent dates on your rifle it would make it a part of the 2nd contract that was ordered on May 29, 1873 by the state of New York. A lot of the 2nd order rifles that I have seen for some reason don't have the inspectors cartouches on the the stocks, like those that are found on the 1st order rifles with the last patent dates ending in 1871. In 1877 the NYS National guard sent out a general order allowing the modification of the rear sight.
Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (205.96 KiB) Viewed 4152 times
This diagram is from the book The Manual of Rifle Practice, which was written By General George W. Wingate.

Here are some photo of the rear sight of a rifle that was used by the 71st Regiment rifle team.
20191102_153958.jpg
20191102_153958.jpg (287.32 KiB) Viewed 4152 times
20191102_154111.jpg
20191102_154111.jpg (258.34 KiB) Viewed 4152 times
Hope this helps you out.

Have a Good Day,
Matt
oldremguy
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: rear sight

Post by oldremguy »

Here are some additional photos of a modified rear sight that is on another rifle in my collection. This rear sight was also modified by adding a windage knob. In 30 years of collecting military rolling blocks, I have only seen one other NYS Model rifle with this modification.
20191102_151126.jpg
20191102_151126.jpg (348.24 KiB) Viewed 4152 times
20191102_151117a.jpg
20191102_151117a.jpg (429.74 KiB) Viewed 4152 times
20191102_151202a.jpg
20191102_151202a.jpg (244.1 KiB) Viewed 4152 times

Have a Good Day,
Matt
marlinman93
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:47 pm

Re: rear sight

Post by marlinman93 »

Those sights with modifications for windage would likely indicate the gun's use as a match rifle for military longrange matches. Of course the windage screw adjustment would be much more precise as you get out farther, but either type would not be used for the average soldier. They're specialty changes that would be made after they left Remington most likely, and for team shooters at clubs.
Pretty neat stuff!
171evergreenfkl
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:00 am

Re: rear sight

Post by 171evergreenfkl »

Thanks Matt, I suspected it was a special use rifle due to its overall condition. It was well maintained.
oldremguy
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: rear sight

Post by oldremguy »

Some of the New York State National Guard members would have Buffington rifle sights from the Springfield trapdoor rifles put on their rifle to help with target shooting.
20200216_113036a.jpg
20200216_113036a.jpg (134.76 KiB) Viewed 4105 times
20200216_113112a.jpg
20200216_113112a.jpg (324.03 KiB) Viewed 4105 times
Photo of the 13th Separate Company shooting teams No.1 & No.2
13th Separate Company NYS National Guard 1895.jpg
13th Separate Company NYS National Guard 1895.jpg (214.15 KiB) Viewed 4105 times
Photo showing two members of the 13th that have Springfield Buffington sights on their rifles
NYS Rifles with Buffington sights on  them.jpg
NYS Rifles with Buffington sights on them.jpg (302.63 KiB) Viewed 4105 times

Have a Good Day,
Matt
171evergreenfkl
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:00 am

Re: rear sight

Post by 171evergreenfkl »

nice photo. Any info. on the bronze in the foreground? 13th sept. co.
"Fenton Guards", Jamestown's pride
oldremguy
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: rear sight

Post by oldremguy »

171evergreenfkl wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:00 pm nice photo. Any info. on the bronze in the foreground? 13th sept. co.
"Fenton Guards", Jamestown's pride
On October 4th 1895, Team No.1 of the 13th Separate Company from Jamestown won the 4th Brigade Match at the Tonawanda range. The winner of the match could take a trophy purchased by the State of New York or take $100 in cash. The 13th Separate Company decided on the trophy instead of the cash. See attached newspaper article about the trophy below.
trophy.jpg
trophy.jpg (268 KiB) Viewed 4069 times
Young Warrior.jpg
Young Warrior.jpg (404.65 KiB) Viewed 4069 times


Here are two articles showing the results of the 4th Brigade Match.
4th  Brigade Match   10.4.1895.jpg
4th Brigade Match 10.4.1895.jpg (276.83 KiB) Viewed 4069 times


Here is a photo with some of the members of the 13th Separate Company that I have been able to identify.
Hazeltine & Fenton and members of team 1 & 2.pdf.jpg
Hazeltine & Fenton and members of team 1 & 2.pdf.jpg (316.05 KiB) Viewed 4069 times

Have a Good Day,
Matt
171evergreenfkl
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:00 am

Re: rear sight

Post by 171evergreenfkl »

any ideas as to the location of this bronze? attached is an earlier photo of a 13th Co. member
Attachments
IMG_1958.JPG
IMG_1958.JPG (2.59 MiB) Viewed 4049 times
oldremguy
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: rear sight

Post by oldremguy »

I wish I knew where the trophy was at, it would be nice to see it.

Here also is a early photo of a member of the 13th Sept. Co. that I have.
Member of 13th Sept. Co. in dress uniform.jpg
Member of 13th Sept. Co. in dress uniform.jpg (277.23 KiB) Viewed 4033 times

Here is an article about the 4th Brigade Shoot held at the Bay View Rifle Range in 1893 and the shooting metal that Private Laban Hazeltine won there.
4th  Brigade Match   1893.jpg
4th Brigade Match 1893.jpg (228.9 KiB) Viewed 4033 times
Laban Hazeltine.jpg
Laban Hazeltine.jpg (208.91 KiB) Viewed 4033 times

Have a Good Day,
Matt
171evergreenfkl
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:00 am

Re: rear sight

Post by 171evergreenfkl »

Excellent, it appears that pvt.Haseltine is sporting that medal in the 1895 dated photo. Out of curiosity, he appears to be wearing a cross on his left arm. Perhaps a medical person? As you can see I am having some issues on photo orientation for which I apologize.
oldremguy
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: rear sight

Post by oldremguy »

171evergreenfkl wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:40 pm Excellent, it appears that pvt.Haseltine is sporting that medal in the 1895 dated photo. Out of curiosity, he appears to be wearing a cross on his left arm. Perhaps a medical person? As you can see I am having some issues on photo orientation for which I apologize.

I got L. Hazeltine’s shooting metal about 20 years ago. Then about 10 years later I bought as a pair the photo of the NYS Guard members with their rolling block rifles along with a poster with the names of the 65th Regiment Co. E on it. I had both of them about one year and decided to look up the 65th Regiment on the internet. That is when I learned that the 65th Regiment Co. E was the 13th Separate Company out of Jamestown, New York. So I then took a closer look at the photo and I could see the No. 13 on their hats, which is when I knew that these were members of the 13th Separate Company.
65th Reg. & 13th Sept. Co.jpg
65th Reg. & 13th Sept. Co.jpg (229.32 KiB) Viewed 3990 times

I had been researching L. Hazeltine’s name on that shooting medal and found out that he was a doctor in Jamestown. Then looking at the photo I realized that the man in the back row had a cross on this left arm and what looked like the shooting metal that I had on his left chest. That is when I knew I had found a photograph with Dr. Laban Hazeltine in it. Private Hazeltine was an excellent shot and was also the Inspector of Rifle Practice of the 13th Sept. Co. and would teach other members the art of target shooting.
The very first NYS Model rolling block rifle that I bought about 30 years ago had 13th Sep. Co. stamped on the left side of the forearm. The sad part is that I sold it a few years later to upgrade to a nicer NYS rifle. I could not have foreseen ending up with that shooting metal years later. After that I was always on the lookout for a rifle that was marked 13th Sept. Co. on it. With only less than 100 members, it would be hard finding another gun like it.
photo A.jpg
photo A.jpg (102.23 KiB) Viewed 3990 times
Dr. Hazeltine.jpg
Dr. Hazeltine.jpg (181.44 KiB) Viewed 3990 times

Then during my research I found out that the original 13th Sept. Co. was located in Warsaw, NY. The Fenton Guards (13th Sept. Co.) out of Jamestown which was first the 1st Separate Company in 1875 and then later on became the 4th Separate Company in 1877. The 13th Sept. Co. out of Warsaw was disbanded on Jan. 1, 1882. On March 16, 1882, the Letchworth Guards known as the 13th Separate Company of the 6th Brigade of the 4th Division, held it’s last military reception & parade and were disbanded. Captain Lawrence kept all of the rifles, after his death they were sold at public auction.

The Fenton Guards out of Jamestown became the 13th Separate Company on Sept. 4, 1882, so the rifle that I had once owned was probably one of the rifles that Captain Lawrence had. The Fenton Guards (13th Sept. Co.) would have had their NYS Model rolling block rifles issued to them back in 1875, when they were the 1st Separate Company.


Full page.jpg
Full page.jpg (353.05 KiB) Viewed 3988 times
Have a Good Day,
Matt
stanforth
Posts: 159
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:56 am
Location: Oxford England

Re: rear sight

Post by stanforth »

I have a NYS Rolling block in very good condition and nothing special apart from a presentation plate fixed to the butt stock with the words 'Presented by W.E ROLFE' in an oval silver plate.

Does this mean anything to anyone?
marlinman93
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:47 pm

Re: rear sight

Post by marlinman93 »

Amazing detective work oldremguy! And a great history of the group and that era of long range shooting! I love firearms, and shooting history as much as the guns.
oldremguy
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: rear sight

Post by oldremguy »

stanforth wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:48 am I have a NYS Rolling block in very good condition and nothing special apart from a presentation plate fixed to the butt stock with the words 'Presented by W.E ROLFE' in an oval silver plate.

Does this mean anything to anyone?
Have not been able to find anything on W. E. Rolfe, does it say who it was presented to ?

Thanks,
Matt
Post Reply