Tell Me What I've Got

Topics related to Pre - 1898 Remington Rifles
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wlw-19958
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Tell Me What I've Got

Post by wlw-19958 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:49 pm

Hi There,

I just received another rolling block for my collection and
I'm trying to discover what exactly I have. It appears to
be very close to a Civil Guard model but there are a few
differences.
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First off, Let me describe it. It is a two band rifle with a
31-1/4" barrel. It is in 50/70 caliber. I have read that the
Civil Guard model was supposed to have a 30-5/8" barrel.

I am not sure how over-all length is measured on these. If I
measure from the muzzle to the center of the butt, I get 45-3/4"
but if I measure straight down the barrel and interpolate a vertical
line down to the heel of the butt, I get something like 46-1/8".

The length of pull is slightly shorter than the standard rifle.
This one has a 12-3/4" pull where my standard Spanish pattern
rifle is 13".

The neat thing about this was, it was advertised as a .43 Spanish
caliber but when I got it in hand, the chamber was too big. I began
to wonder if it was a .43 Egyptian so I started measuring the rim
diameter and base of the chamber. They were not even close to
the Egyptian dimensions. I looked down the chamber and bore and
noticed that this wasn't for a bottleneck cartridge. So, I made a
chamber cast. Sure enough, the dimensions were for a 50/70.
The groove diameter is a little tight (at .511" to .512") but not
excessive (especially if I size my bullets correctly).

There are a couple of other points that intrigue me. The frame
appears to be a "type 4" but it doesn't have the "mortises" where
the wood abuts the frame. I post a pic here with my Spanish model
over top so you can see the differences
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I am curious to know what others think. Post your thoughts.

Thanks in advance.
-Blue Chips-
Webb

oldremguy
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Tell Me What I've Got

Post by oldremguy » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:15 pm

Hello Blue Chips,

Is this the one that was on gunbroker for a long time?
I looked at it a number of times thinking that it may of been chambered in 50-70.
The rear sight on the guard rifle is the same type that is found on the New York State rolling block rifles.
Also I think the frame and breech block may also be the same as found on the NYS Rifles. That would help
explain why it doesn't have the mortises as found on the later frames. I will try to post some photos of my guard rifle in the next few days and take some measurements of the barrel length.

Have a Good Day,
Matt

wlw-19958
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: Tell Me What I've Got

Post by wlw-19958 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:25 pm

Hi There,

Yes, this was on GunBroker for a while. It is NOT
a New York type locking action. It does have a New
York style breach block (with the three pointed shield
impression) but these have been used on other
rolling blocks too. Like most 19th Century firearm
manufacturers, Remington used surplus parts whenever
they could.

I was re-reading my copy of Remington Rolling Block
Military Rifles
by George Layman
and under the section
on Cuba, George mentions that he recently acquired
a Civil Guard model from Cuba that had a 1-1/2 action.
This got me thinking and I measured the thickness of
mine. I found that it is thinner than the standard Number
1 action. The standard is 1.312" thick and this one is 1.225"
thick. Not as thin as a 1-1/2 (which are supposed to be
1.14") but thinner than a standard No. 1. I wish George
was still around to ask about this.

As I think about it, I wonder if it was originally a type 3
action (with rotary extractor) that was machined and/or
ground down to eliminate the step. In any case, it is
professionally done and appears to be a factory job.
In the above mentioned book, George says that type 3
actions had the mortised frame too.

There are no signs of any cartouches or any troop or rack
letters or numbers stamped on the stock. Just a few scattered
dings and bumps as one typically sees with old military rifles.
So, I don't think it is a New York State Militia rifle (I wish it were)!

Thanks for your thoughts!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

P.S. "-Blue Chips-" is a salutation and not a handle."




-

oldremguy
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Tell Me What I've Got

Post by oldremguy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:49 pm

Hello Webb,

Here are some photos of my guard rifle.
The barrel length is also 30-5/8 inches.
The thickness of my receiver is 1.315 inches.
My rifle has the slide extractor on it.

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Have a Good Day,
Matt

oldremguy
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Tell Me What I've Got

Post by oldremguy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:57 pm

Here are some photos of the barrel bands.
The number 22 which I believe to be assembly numbers is stamped on the barrel, frame and forearm.


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Have a Good Day,
Matt

wlw-19958
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: Tell Me What I've Got

Post by wlw-19958 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:54 pm

Hi Matt,

Thanks for responding!

Your Civil Guard model is very nice! Does it have
a "tinned" finish? It sort of looks like it does.

There are no assembly numbers per se, except for
the left-side upper and lower tangs have 356.

Your receiver is a "type 2" with slide bar extractor
(as you mentioned and mine is an unknown type.
It doesn't exactly match a "type 3" or "type 4" but
it looks more like the "type 4" except lacking the
mortises.

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My Barrel Band are just about identical to yours.

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Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

oldremguy
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Tell Me What I've Got

Post by oldremguy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:23 pm

wlw-19958 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:54 pm
Hi Matt,

Thanks for responding!

Your Civil Guard model is very nice! Does it have
a "tinned" finish? It sort of looks like it does.

There are no assembly numbers per se, except for
the left-side upper and lower tangs have 356.

Your receiver is a "type 2" with slide bar extractor
(as you mentioned and mine is an unknown type.
It doesn't exactly match a "type 3" or "type 4" but
it looks more like the "type 4" except lacking the
mortises.


0327192336c.jpg
0328190001a.jpg

My Barrel Band are just about identical to yours.


0327192337.jpg
0327192337a.jpg

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb
Hello Webb,

I believe my rifle is nickel plated and it is also chambered in 50-70.
The butt stock on my rifle was drilled out to help reduce the weight of the gun.
This is the only rolling block rifle that I have ever examined that had this done to the butt stock.

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Have a Good Day,
Matt

wlw-19958
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: Tell Me What I've Got

Post by wlw-19958 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:47 pm

Hi There,

Mine doesn't have any cutouts under the butt plate.
How deep do yours go?

I would like to ask a favor if I might. Would you take
some measurements for me please? I would like to
know the following three dimensions:

Distance from the end of the forend to the muzzle,

Distance from front of receiver to the rear barrel band,

and Distance from the receiver to front barrel band.

If you would so good to make these measurements and
post the results, I would appreciate it. I want to compare
them to mine.

Thanks in advance!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

oldremguy
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Tell Me What I've Got

Post by oldremguy » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:41 pm

wlw-19958 wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:47 pm
Hi There,

Mine doesn't have any cutouts under the butt plate.
How deep do yours go?

I would like to ask a favor if I might. Would you take
some measurements for me please? I would like to
know the following three dimensions:

Distance from the end of the forend to the muzzle,

Distance from front of receiver to the rear barrel band,

and Distance from the receiver to front barrel band.

If you would so good to make these measurements and
post the results, I would appreciate it. I want to compare
them to mine.

Thanks in advance!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Hello Webb,

The cutouts in the buttstock are approximately 1 inch in diameter and the top one is 3-1/4" deep and the bottom hole is 5-1/4" deep.
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The distance from the end of the forearm to the muzzle is 29-3/16"
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Distance from front of receiver to rear barrel band is 7-3/16"
photo 1a.jpg
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Distance from front of receiver to front barrel band is 21-5/8"
Photo 3a.jpg
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Distance from front of receiver to rear of barrel forearm stud is 5-15/16". It looks like they made a mistake and cutout the barrel stud in the wrong place in the forearm and had to redo it.
photo 1.jpg
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Have a Good Day,
Matt

oldremguy
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Tell Me What I've Got

Post by oldremguy » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:45 pm

Hello Webb,

Here is one more photo showing the distance from front barrel band to end of barrel is 7-1/8"
From the end of the nose cap to the end of the barrel is 3-7/8"
Photo 4.jpg
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Have a Good Day,
Matt

wlw-19958
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: Tell Me What I've Got

Post by wlw-19958 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:07 pm

Hi There,

Thanks for the measurements Matt. Mine are
similar but not identical. I don't have pics and
I didn't record all of the same measurements you
did. What I do have is this:

Forend Tip to Muzzle: 3"

Front of Receiver to Rear Barrel Band: 7-1/4"

Front of Receiver to Front Barrel Band: 23-1/8"

Front of Receiver to Forend Tip: 26-3/4"

Front of Receiver to Muzzle: 29-3/4"

Barrel Length from Breech Face to Muzzle: 31-3/16"

Measurements are similar but they diverge more as the
they move away from the receiver.

Thanks for your help!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

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