Early round top Sporting Rifle

Topics related to Pre - 1898 Remington Rifles
marlinman93
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:47 pm

Early round top Sporting Rifle

Post by marlinman93 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:12 pm

I have an early Sporting Rifle in .44 Long Centerfire. It is serial #66x, and it is one of those early guns Remington built using the military receiver. Had it for awhile, but recently took it apart for a thorough cleaning and was a little surprised to see the cleaning rod stud mounted in the receiver. It is all numbers matching on stocks, receiver, barrel, and small parts, so all original.
I have read in Marcot's book on the Sporting Rifles that the hole for the lug was usually D&T for these, but no mention of them also getting a lug installed. Oversight, or is this common? I know these aren't often seen, as supposedly only less than 1500 round top Sporting were made before changing to octagon top receivers. Hope somebody has had one apart also, and might tell me what theirs had?

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wlw-19958
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: Early round top Sporting Rifle

Post by wlw-19958 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:27 pm

Hi There,

The stud type ramrod retainer was a feature of early
military #1 actions. I cannot see from your pics if your
action is a type 1 (flat sided) or a type 2 (stepped sided).
Both used the bar type extractor (exemplified by the
screw on the left upper front of the receiver).

It would be helpful to know the patent inscription on the
upper tang. This info could help in narrowing the range
of possible manufacture dates.

It would be interesting to know if the upper and lower tangs
are the same length or not.

Congrats on a nice looking rifle!

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

marlinman93
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:47 pm

Re: Early round top Sporting Rifle

Post by marlinman93 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:12 pm

My early round top Sporting Rifle is in the serial number 6xx range. The inscription on the top tang is the earliest type, "Remington's Ilion, N.Y. USA" 2nd line, "PAT. May 3d, Nov. 13th 1864, April 17th 1866"

It is the flat side action. It has the longer lower tang with extra wood screw into the stock.

wlw-19958
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: Early round top Sporting Rifle

Post by wlw-19958 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:59 am

Hi There,
marlinman93 wrote:It is the flat side action. It has the longer lower tang with extra wood screw into the stock


Definitely a type 1 action. Does it have the concave
or flat breech block?

Good Luck!
-Blue chips-
Webb

marlinman93
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:47 pm

Re: Early round top Sporting Rifle

Post by marlinman93 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:11 am

Since it's a centerfire, it has the flat breechblock. I believe all the concave breechblocks were rimfire calibers during this era? Or am I mistaken?

wlw-19958
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: Early round top Sporting Rifle

Post by wlw-19958 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:45 am

Hi There,
marlinman93 wrote:Since it's a centerfire, it has the flat breechblock. I believe all the concave breechblocks were rimfire calibers during this era? Or am I mistaken?


No. that is not correct. All Remington rolling blocks
used the concave breech block prior to 1870. Afterwards,
Remington changed their manufacturing techniques and
started using the "flat" style breech block. It was around
this time that the center fire cartridge started to become
the preferred ignition system for self contained metallic
ammunition but it was not the reason for the change.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

marlinman93
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:47 pm

Re: Early round top Sporting Rifle

Post by marlinman93 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:15 pm

My mistake. But it seems the change to the flat breech blocks took place around the same time frame as the introduction of centerfire chamberings.

wlw-19958
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: Early round top Sporting Rifle

Post by wlw-19958 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:08 pm

Hi There,

Yes, it is just a coincidence. The change from concave to
flat base breech block was mostly due to economics. It was
just faster (and hence cheaper) to produce the flat breech
block. Foreign Governments that bought a license to manufacture
rolling blocks from Remington also bought their machinery from
them as well. Also, these licenses were obtained prior to
the conversion to the flat breech block and hence, Foreign
Countries made their copies with he concave breech block
and continued to do this long after Remington switch over to
the flat breech block.

The main reason for switching to center fire ammunition was
that ammunition was getting more powerful and the thin walls
of the rimfire cartridge head would frequently split; letting the
hot gasses come back into the shooter's face.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

marlinman93
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:47 pm

Re: Early round top Sporting Rifle

Post by marlinman93 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:23 pm

Thanks for the information.
I guess not enough of these have been examined to determine if it was common to add the cleaning rod lug, even though they never had a cleaning rod?

wlw-19958
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: Early round top Sporting Rifle

Post by wlw-19958 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:21 pm

Hi There,

I am curious about the breech face of your breech block.
Your type 1 action was commonly used for converting
muzzle loading firearms over to breech loading. This
involved cutting off the original breech plug and re-
threading the barrel to fit the Remington system.

Most re-fitted barrels were of large caliber and the standard
rolling block breech face needed to be made slightly wider
to completely support the head of the cartridge.

So I'm wondering if your breech is one of the ones used with
the type 1 action (with what are called "ears"). Like most
19th Century firearm manufacturers, Remington didn't throw
anything useful away and re-purposed actions when possible.
I think this maybe the case with your rolling block.

This would explain the ramrod stud. The action was complete
and in the inventory and then was used to build a civilian rifle.

So, if you could take some close-up pics of the action open
showing the breech face, that would interesting to see.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

marlinman93
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:47 pm

Re: Early round top Sporting Rifle

Post by marlinman93 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:56 pm

Unfamiliar with the terminology of "ears" as it pertains to a Rolling Block? But here's an image of the breech block face. Can't see any signs of it having been something else earlier?

Image

wlw-19958
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: Early round top Sporting Rifle

Post by wlw-19958 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:02 pm

Hi There,

Thanks for the pic but I guess I didn't explain well enough.
I wanted to see the face of the breech block and not the
breech of the barrel. I have included a pic from the George
Layman book on military rolling blocks showing the three
type 1 rolling block actions. I inserted "arrows" to point out
the "ears."
Type 1 Actions.jpg
Type 1 Actions.jpg (1.22 MiB) Viewed 1142 times
Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

marlinman93
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:47 pm

Re: Early round top Sporting Rifle

Post by marlinman93 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:28 am

Here's a picture of the breech block.

Image

wlw-19958
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: Early round top Sporting Rifle

Post by wlw-19958 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:44 am

Hi There,

Thanks for the pic. As you can see, yours doesn't have the
"ears" (like the ones I posted). I also notice your hammer
has the shield type hammer knurling. This was the type of
knurling used on the New York State Militia contract.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

marlinman93
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:47 pm

Re: Early round top Sporting Rifle

Post by marlinman93 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:32 pm

The shield on the hammer spur is very common among Octagon Top Sporting rifles. I have 5 octagon top sporting rifles that all have that same shield shaped checkered area.

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