Help ID’ing an old rolling block

Topics related to Pre - 1898 Remington Rifles
DeLisle45
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:59 pm

Help ID’ing an old rolling block

Post by DeLisle45 »

I have An SA Rolling Block I picked up on a whim, while looking at an estate gun collection with Enfield and S&W’s. I am a 10 year collector of Enfield rifles, so this is an ancillary find.

It appears to be an 1870 trials rifle. BUT NOT 100%. Wonder about breech block without side screw. Also, could this be an “oops” Franco/ Prussian rifle that got out with the rear sight in the “correct” location.

Receiver Left side: No marking. Right side:
US (no “N”, and no sign of it being removed)
Springfield
1870
Appears to be a type 2 receiver with a non concave breech block.

Tang is marked:
Remington‘s Patent
PAT. MAY 3d (line under superscript d) NOV 15th (superscript underlined th). 1864 APRIL 17th (ditto) 1868.

The barrel is 32 5/8” long with NO bayonet lug (except barley corn front sight). There is NO anchor on the barrel just in front of the receiver. (also no sign of it being removed) The witness marks line up. There are 2 barrel bands, both marked with “U”,s. There is a notch to retain the cleaning rod. It is chambered in 50-70.

The rear sight is 3 1/8” from the receiver ring. The sight is the same as I have seen on other Navy and Army rifles. The ladder is marked 2, 3, 5, 7, & 9.

The stock cartouche is ESA.

I have attached pictures.
Attachments
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Last edited by DeLisle45 on Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DeLisle45
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:59 pm

Re: Help ID’ing an old rolling block

Post by DeLisle45 »

More pictures of the receiver, tang, front sight, barrel bands, etc...
Attachments
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oldremguy
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Help ID’ing an old rolling block

Post by oldremguy »

Hello DeLisle45,

What you have is a Springfield 1870 Trials Rifle. The only thing that I can see wrong with it
is the breech block. The breech block would have a screw going through the breech block to
hold the firing pin in place. Also the firing pin would have been spring loaded to keep the firing
pin from protruding out the front front of the breech block when the hammer was cocked. So
I believe that the breech block is a replacement. Below are some photos of my 1870 Rifle, sorry
for the poor quality they were taken at 15 years ago.
P3100071 - aCopy.jpg
P3100071 - aCopy.jpg (133.24 KiB) Viewed 5465 times
P3100073a.jpg
P3100073a.jpg (90.67 KiB) Viewed 5465 times
P3100072a.jpg
P3100072a.jpg (107.38 KiB) Viewed 5465 times
P3100080a.jpg
P3100080a.jpg (92.38 KiB) Viewed 5465 times
P3100078 - aCopy.jpg
P3100078 - aCopy.jpg (39 KiB) Viewed 5465 times
Have a Good Day,
Matt
DeLisle45
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:59 pm

Re: Help ID’ing an old rolling block

Post by DeLisle45 »

Thank you. That is what I sorta figured. The breech block is why I wasn’t 100% on the ID.

Is there a specific breech block for those rifles? It would be interesting to try to get a replacement breech block. Sources?

What are these things worth? I’ve seen auctions go from less than $2K to over $3.5K, for similar condition. Though in all fairness, they did have the correct breech blocks. 🙂. They were recent, last 2 years or so.
oldremguy
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Help ID’ing an old rolling block

Post by oldremguy »

I think that the best replacement for the breech block would be one from the Springfield 1870 Navy rifle. The Navy rifle and the Trials Rifle were made at the same time by Springfield, so i would think that they would of used the same breech block for both rifles. In the next few days when I get a chance, I will pull my navy rifle and the trials rifle out of the safe and compare breech blocks. I think you are spot on for the value range of the rifle.

Have a Good Day,
Matt
ehull
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:04 pm
Location: So. California

Re: Help ID’ing an old rolling block

Post by ehull »

Matt,
Look very closely: they are supposed to be different.
Ed
DeLisle45
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:59 pm

Re: Help ID’ing an old rolling block

Post by DeLisle45 »

Ed, since I am new to the world of Remington collecting, what are the differences supposed to be between the Navy and Army versions you are referring to?

Thanks
-Neal
oldremguy
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Help ID’ing an old rolling block

Post by oldremguy »

Hello Neal,

I took some photos and measurements of the breech block from the 1870 Trials Rifle and the 1870 Navy Rifle.
The breech blocks look to be the same shape and size.
photo 1a.jpg
photo 1a.jpg (110.84 KiB) Viewed 5386 times
photo 2a.jpg
photo 2a.jpg (73.66 KiB) Viewed 5386 times
photo 3a.jpg
photo 3a.jpg (71.72 KiB) Viewed 5386 times
photo 4a.jpg
photo 4a.jpg (97.3 KiB) Viewed 5386 times
photo 5a.jpg
photo 5a.jpg (71.24 KiB) Viewed 5386 times
Have a Good Day,
Matt
ehull
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:04 pm
Location: So. California

Re: Help ID’ing an old rolling block

Post by ehull »

Matt,
Nice analysis!
Unfortunately, it was my error in suggesting that it was the breech block that was different (senior moment). It was the hammer shape that was supposed to be different.
Apologies.
Ed
Dick Hosmer
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Re: Help ID’ing an old rolling block

Post by Dick Hosmer »

I cannot place my finger on exactly why or what, but there is something "wrong" about the first picture (of the muzzle area). The rod (whose front end dimensions never changed) looks "right", and the rifle (exposed stock wood dimension) proportions look "right", but the rod is supposed to be flush with muzzle when seated and that one isn't even close. Is the barrel too long? Has the wood been set back? If so, was the rod trimmed at the rear end? Ed's rifle shows the correct set-up, and agrees with mine. Just wondering?
ehull
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:04 pm
Location: So. California

Re: Help ID’ing an old rolling block

Post by ehull »

What is the length of this rifle’s forestock? Maybe the stock was replaced by a Navy Model stock?
oldremguy
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Help ID’ing an old rolling block

Post by oldremguy »

Hello Neal,

Your rifle looks like the barrel and forearm may have been cut down. In your first post, you note that
the barrel length is 32-5/8 inches. The 1870 Trails Rifles were made with a 36 inch barrels. See photos below.
1870 Trials Rifle.jpg
1870 Trials Rifle.jpg (70.59 KiB) Viewed 5364 times
Also attached is a photo of a forearm from a 1870 Navy Rifle without metal nose cap.
1870 Navy Rifle forearm.jpg
1870 Navy Rifle forearm.jpg (62.15 KiB) Viewed 5364 times
Have a Good Day,
Matt
DeLisle45
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:59 pm

Re: Help ID’ing an old rolling block

Post by DeLisle45 »

I’ll pull and measure tonight when I get home.
oldremguy
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Help ID’ing an old rolling block

Post by oldremguy »

Here are some more photos with measurements.
The 1870 Trials rifle uses the standard Springfield Civil War bayonet.
photo a1a.jpg
photo a1a.jpg (49.03 KiB) Viewed 5319 times
photo b1.jpg
photo b1.jpg (78.46 KiB) Viewed 5319 times
photo e1.jpg
photo e1.jpg (93.23 KiB) Viewed 5318 times

Have a Good Day,
Matt
Dick Hosmer
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:15 pm
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Re: Help ID’ing an old rolling block

Post by Dick Hosmer »

My guns are not readily accessible at present, but I believe the hammer is (also) the same between the Navies and the Trials rifles. Barrel length, forend length, rod length, and right-side receiver markings are the determining factors. The hammer and block are both distinctly different on the 1871 Army.
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