Help Identifying a family RB

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Vbs
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:47 pm

Help Identifying a family RB

Post by Vbs »

Hello, first post. We have had a gun in our family, that I'm trying to research. There aren't many markings on the gun. There are no Remington, Springfield, or other markings on the gun. I'd really appreciate the help. I'll post images of what I know.
Attachments
"B" on the barrel.  I believe this is an inspection mark.
"B" on the barrel. I believe this is an inspection mark.
RB3.jpg (251.26 KiB) Viewed 6101 times
The upper tang has "61220" on it.  The lower has "70796".
The upper tang has "61220" on it. The lower has "70796".
RB2.jpg (255.34 KiB) Viewed 6101 times
Overview of the gun.  My best guess is that it is an RB5 model 1897.  I've look through George Layman's book.  I didn't see a good match, but need to spend more time on it.  The carvings are "G. Nelson" and "Matanza", which translates to "a killing" or "Slaughter".
Overview of the gun. My best guess is that it is an RB5 model 1897. I've look through George Layman's book. I didn't see a good match, but need to spend more time on it. The carvings are "G. Nelson" and "Matanza", which translates to "a killing" or "Slaughter".
RB1.jpg (239.75 KiB) Viewed 6101 times
jon_norstog
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Re: Help Identifying a family RB

Post by jon_norstog »

Well what it **looks** like to me is a Remington No. 1, probably a rifle that was cut down into a "carbine." There should be a whole bunch of printing stamped into the upper tang, with all the various patent dates. The barrel is like the one used in the New York Contract weapons, rather than the stub of octagon you find on the Argys.

It looks like Remington work, too. The look of the forgings and the numbers along the sides of the tangs. Any idea of the caliber? Could be a 50/70 or a .43 of some kind. That might tell you a little bit.

Looks as if that rifle had a rough life. It may have been put together from parts. If it has been in your family a while you may have some clues there as to its origin.

Good luck!

jn
Vbs
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Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:47 pm

Re: Help Identifying a family RB

Post by Vbs »

Some more images. Thanks Jon. You are correct, she has had a hard life. I'll have to post a before picture. There are no patent marks, which seems odd. I have read that these were licensed out for manufacturing. The only time I heard someone mention a gun without markings was a Youtube video of a gentleman firing an Argentine RB. The presenter made a passing comment that his, like many other Argentine guns, was missing it's markings.

I had thought about the possibility of it being put together with parts. I had noticed the similarities in the NY carbines and this one. Could this be a #5 model 1897? In Layman's book and on http://www.rollingblockparts.com/no-5.html, the 1897 looked to be the closest match. Ours is also the only one I've seen with a smooth hammer and breach block. I guess it could be wear, but there is no sign that there was every any knurling present. I'm also curious about the "J.L.P." on the stock. In Layman's book, there is a gun with J.L.P on it's markings. J.L.P. is carved in the butt stock of this gun. Any thoughts if that is just coincidence? Is that a Spanish term?

I'm really interested in the history of the gun. A date or historical events would help us figure out who in the family likely owned it.
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RB7.jpg
RB7.jpg (254.54 KiB) Viewed 6081 times
"P" on the side of the barrel, and the expected "U".
"P" on the side of the barrel, and the expected "U".
RB5.jpg (193.13 KiB) Viewed 6081 times
"V" on the underneath of the barrel.
"V" on the underneath of the barrel.
RB4.jpg (212.13 KiB) Viewed 6081 times
Last edited by Vbs on Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vbs
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Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:47 pm

Re: Help Identifying a family RB

Post by Vbs »

A few final images. Also, I added an image of what the gun looked like when I found it.
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What it looked like when I found it.
What it looked like when I found it.
IMG_0246.jpg (22.4 KiB) Viewed 6081 times
RB8.jpg
RB8.jpg (237.01 KiB) Viewed 6081 times
RB6.jpg
RB6.jpg (210.68 KiB) Viewed 6081 times
jon_norstog
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Re: Help Identifying a family RB

Post by jon_norstog »

Well, VBS, the bead blaster really did a job for you. What I see is a classic No. 1. The No. 5 looked different and **was** different, in a number of ways.

Tell us the caliber and someone on this list will come up with more info. I'm mainly a shooter, not a collector; there are some real heavies that check in from time to time. My bet is it's 50-70.

Someone carved a date into the stock - 14 January 1897 and made a not of his name and a "matanzas" or massacre. A lot of those military rolling blocks has second lives in the darker corners of the world.

Keep with it!

jn
ehull
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Re: Help Identifying a family RB

Post by ehull »

The frame of this carbine was made by Remington 1871-1879. Before 1871 the breech block was different, after 1879 the interface edges to the stocks had an added fillet. The sliding extractor is also, generally pre-1880 -- though it was used on carbines to a later date. The caliber appears to be .50 CF, common for carbines. The fact that the recoil block on the bottom of the barrel was moved rearward also points to a rework. The date in Spanish hints at it being from Mexico or Latin America.
Johnboat 225
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Re: Help Identifying a family RB

Post by Johnboat 225 »

The date carved on the stock is the date of the eleventh constitution of Ecuador. Most of the Google information for Enero 14, 1897 is in spanish.
http://www.cancilleria.gob.ec/wp-conten ... n_1897.pdf
jon_norstog
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Re: Help Identifying a family RB

Post by jon_norstog »

I'm thinking Spanish as well. Matanzas is also a city and province on the north side of Cuba, where a good part of the Cuban war against Spain was fought. There was heavy fighting in Matanzas that year (1897) as Weyler's troops went on an offensive to crush the Cubans. It ended poorly for Spain, so they say.

The Cubans were armed, a lot of them, with Remington rolling block rifles and carbines. There was a brisk trade in weapons to the islands. Let us know if the rifle is a .43 or .50 cal. One scenario is this rifle was acquired - perhaps a battlefield pickup - by a US soldier during the Spanish American War and brought home in a duffel bag
Vbs
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Re: Help Identifying a family RB

Post by Vbs »

Great information. The subtle features of the hardware and cooresponding dates really help. I did read not to put too much faith in a components age, because it could have been pit into a gun long after it was produced.

Actually, I used electrolytic cleaning, 0000 steel wool, lacquer thinner (on wood), and Hoppe's #9.
jbw
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Re: Help Identifying a family RB

Post by jbw »

The rear sight is the same as om my Remington Navy model 1867, in fact it look a lot like the Navy
Vbs
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Re: Help Identifying a family RB

Post by Vbs »

I casted the barrel. A may try again later. I could use some help identifying:
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RB12.jpg
RB12.jpg (195.21 KiB) Viewed 6016 times
RB11.jpg
RB11.jpg (243.4 KiB) Viewed 6016 times
RB10.jpg
RB10.jpg (218.86 KiB) Viewed 6016 times
Vbs
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Re: Help Identifying a family RB

Post by Vbs »

More Images. I can see the rifling in the barrel now.
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RB15.jpg
RB15.jpg (229.49 KiB) Viewed 6016 times
RB14.jpg
RB14.jpg (213.43 KiB) Viewed 6016 times
RB13.jpg
RB13.jpg (247 KiB) Viewed 6016 times
Vbs
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Re: Help Identifying a family RB

Post by Vbs »

Last image reaching into the barrel. I couldn't really get a good measurement on the length of the casing.
Attachments
RB16.jpg
RB16.jpg (233.09 KiB) Viewed 6016 times
Vbs
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Re: Help Identifying a family RB

Post by Vbs »

I found some dimensions on line for an early .43 Spanish 11.5X57Rmm / .43 Spanish Reformado. The dimensions aren't far off.

Historical Notes: This was the original centerfire, Berdan-primed Spanish military cartridge. It was adopted about 1867 and used in early rolling-block rifles manufactured by Remington for the Spanish government. It was also used in some Berdan and Snider conversions of the Spanish muzzleloader. Over a million rounds of this ammunition and many rolling-block rifles were captured by American troops in Cuba during the Spanish-American war. It was replaced by the 11.15mm Spanish Remington cartridge in 1871. General Comments: Although this cartridge is listed as 43-caliber, the bullet has a base band that is actually 0.454-inch in diameter. The bullet is brass covered and has a 10-degree beveled base. Rim and base diameter and case length are almost identical to the 11.15mm Spanish Remington and cases could be made by expanding and trimming 11.15mm cases. (Cartridges of the World 12th Edition)

https://www.loaddata.com/Cartridge/115X ... rmado/6278
jon_norstog
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Re: Help Identifying a family RB

Post by jon_norstog »

I'm guessing a bring-back from either Cuba or the Philippines. The .43 caliber clinches it for me.

jn
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