Brass frame Remington rifle

[ehull]

Recently I acquired a brass frame Remington RB, with the characteristics of a true Remington-made rifle but without any markings at all. I am posting some photos.

Who else has a brass framed type? I have heard of "Mexican" brass frame rifles, but this is too close to a "real" Remington to be one of those.

It has the following unique characteristics:
1. Appears to be caliber .50-60 RF Musket (same as Springfield-Joslyn M1864, Peabody M1866), so is likely early.
2. Brass buttplate with longer tang, and unique brass stock tip.
3. Tangs are thicker that iron frame -- will not accept a standard buttstock.
4. Has a ramrod spoon retainer, but a bit smaller than Springfield rifle musket type. No threaded rod retained, and full length rod is not threaded.
5. Muzzle diameter 0.726; too big for standard Remington socket bayonet, too small for M1855 Springfield.

Seems early, and unique.

[ehull]

More pics, to show the detailed features of the rifle.

[ehull]

Yet more pics, to show the detailed features of the rifle.
Yes, the buttstock has a large "10" stamped ahead of the tang.

[tjack]

Ed,
I was watching that rifle. Looked too much like a Remington and not at all like a European product. i.e., I had no idea what it was. This won't help you any but I have a brass-framed Rolling Block with a French proof mark. In Geo. Layman's book on page 88. Got a little info on it from "Doc Av" on GunBoards.
Tom

[rudybolla]

Here are photos of a French brass framed roller. I copied from an auction I was following a few years back.

[ehull]

Did you record the caliber? There were VERY few European rimfire rifles of large caliber -- the early Swedish being an exception.

The French one is very similar in frame style. Mine has some different frame features, like the larger sloped edges at the ends of the top of the frame. Also, mine has a typical Remington rear sight, much different than the French one.

[rudybolla]

I do not recall the chambering. At the time, I was collecting military rolling blocks, but was unsure if this was in fact a military rifle. Just thought it was pretty and copied pics for my reference files.

[ehull]

Did you save a photo of the full length rifle?

[rudybolla]

Did you save a photo of the full length rifle?

Unfortunately, no. I have searched my photo files and even tried to find the old link online with no luck. But IIRC, it looked similar to yours, more or less.

[JV Puleo]

Great find Ed.
I believe it is Chinese and I would bet one of the first made. The quality seems very good but that shouldn't really surprise us because, at the beginning at least, the machinery was all new and the supervisory personnel were English. I suspect the quality declined as more of the work was taken over by the Chinese themselves — mostly because they lacked a real appreciation of the value of interchangeable parts etc... It was more a cultural failing than one of craftsmanship.

[ehull]

Joe,
Yes, this may be Chinese. I did not notice the character on the buttplate until it was pointed out to me just this weekend. I understand from George Layman that .50-60 RF Musket was a common cartridge for Chinese arms in the early (1867 and later) period.

I'm uploading a photo of the buttplate.

The quality of machining is high, and the characteristics of the breech pieces, rear sight and barrel bands, for instance, are as good as Remington factory. The barrel is crisply rifled with 3 grooves (still near new). However, some other features are not up to Remington standard: there are tiny slag pits in the barrel metal under the forestock, some screw heads do not fit exactly, and the noted ramrod spoon is held in place by a wood (bamboo?) pin rather than iron.

[JV Puleo]

I knew about the rifle because George called me... he was really excited about it and glad its in the hands of someone we know.
He can tell you exactly what the character on the butt plate means... its fairly complicated so better you ask him as I may mix up what he told me. In brief, it can mean "good luck" or it can be a name. The most interesting part is that its a very professional stamp in that the brush strokes are perfect.... its purely conjecture on my part but it could be an inspector's mark.

[stanforth]

God. I love this forum.
Where else could you get this quality of information.?
Keep it up.

[wsmrto]

OK! My wife reads Chinese (as do most all Koreans) and this is pronounced "KIL or Gil" is the character's for "GOOD LUCK or to have a "HAPPY FATE" . Seems that the person holding this should consider himself LUCKY to have found such a nice old RB.