Need help identifying - Rolling block saddle-ring carbine

[burnu2]

Hello!

I recently came upon a Rolling Block Carbine but I can't seem to find out anything about it regardless how much I research it. The auction I bought it from listed it as an 1871 Remington Rolling Block 45-70 Saddle Ring Carbine which I have my doubts. I would love to find out more about this gun.

I can attest that it's not 45-70 as I attempted to chamber an empty. There is a lot of wiggle room (side to side/up and down) and the chamber is much shorter in length than the .45-70 casing. I used a caliper to get some rough measurements at the muzzle (.43.6") and the chamber (.53.6"). Due to the amount of cartridges this gun was made in and my lack of experience with antique firearms I am clueless on the caliber.

The gun has just about no markings left if it had any to begin with. The only markings I can see is a "U" on the front band, something that looks like a "V" on the top of the stock, and something that looks like "HMANN" engraved on the top of the barrel.

The finish also concerns me as most of the rolling blocks I've researched had a blued finish while this has no blue what-so-ever anywhere on the gun. Usually if it is really worn, I would at least see some evidence of it.

I have attached some photos I took this morning, I enhanced the images for clarity to the best of my ability. More images are available but I can only post 3 at a time.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

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Thanks a lot

[Johnboat 225]

I have one too. And the dimension sound similar. Mine chambers modern 43 Egyptian loosely and modern 43 Dutch Beaumont tightly. I say "modern" because both were made adapting and reforming another type of brass and may not be identical to original antique rounds. Both are tapered so the primer end is over 50 and the bullet end is 43ish. You can Google those and find schematics with dimensions. Not an expert. I only have the one carbine.

Your fore end retainer is not like mine. Mine has spring bar in the fore end wood that hold the one piece retainer in place. My retainer is an unbroken piece with no slot or screw. Yours looks like it is tightened or loosened by a screw on the retainer slot.

[rudybolla]

The breech of the barrel is marked 11 MANN , not H MANN, which means that the chamber was enlarged years ago to accept the more commonly available 11mm Mannlicher (Werndl) cartridge at that time. This was done to many formerly .43 Spanish rolling blocks in the 50s and early 60s.

[burnu2]

Thank you Johnboat 225 and rubybolla for the replies!

I'm happy to finally learn it's caliber. The 11mm Mannlicher makes a lot of sense.

Another weird thing about this gun is that is lacks the half-cock safety when the rolling block closes. I'm guessing that this means it's pre-1871 before the Army required the half-cock safety to be in place.

So, from what I have gathered so far, it's likely a Spanish contract. I wonder how much the 11mm Mannlicher conversion hurt it's collector value. I had high hopes that this was something I would be able to take out to the range on occasion, but considering the availability on the cartridges I have my doubts.

Just for reference, I've attached a photo of the 11 Mann on the barrel.

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Thanks again.

[rudybolla]

Don't despair. You can probably get it to the range. Check with Buffalo Arms. They may have brass, dies, etc. If that fails, I have been in contact with a guy here in Texas who can make almost any case for you. Prices seem reasonable, depending on parent case, which in this case, might even be .43 Spanish.

[Dick Hosmer]

Admittedly not the easiest case to find, but, at one time, .348 Winchester brass (which is extrememly robust) was used to form such cases by slightly reducing the rear portion - around .75" or so - of the body of the case in a lathe, then fire-forming. As I recall, this worked very well.

[tjack]

I "lucked" into one of those in early 1987 except that mine was not marked "11 MANN". Got it home from the gun show and slipped an 11mm Spanish cartridge into the chamber. The Spanish cartridge kind of got lost in there. Made a chamber cast and....11 mm Mannlicher. This is the only one I've ever had so mine may be unique: the Mannlicher chamber reamer was run into the chamber just enough to open up the back end of the case. This left a double shoulder below the neck. Not a problem, just looks weird. Back in those days we could get BELL Basic cases and I used BELL 450 BASE NE. cases to make mine. My groove diameter is .441". The .439" Spanish bullet is a little small and the .446" Mauser bullet too large. With experimentation, I settled on the .439" Spanish bullet 20:1 and have to use black powder or Pyrodex to make the bullet expand (bump up). In those days the desert got rain. Many a jack rabbit met their demise on the receiving end of that carbine.
If I were you and I wanted to shoot it, I'd contact Buffalo Arms Co., order 11 mm Mannlicher cases and fire form them in your chamber. You shouldn't need dies. Of course, you will need to slug your bore to determine what bullet you will need.
Good luck!!