What do I have (danish, but not the standard one).

[Dekker]

Hi,

This is my first post here, English is not my native language (I am Dutch) so please bear with me, if I make some errors in writing.

I bought a 2 years ago a nice looking (but obviously used) rollig block without any knowledge about these rifles.
After reading about them, I soon found out it was a danish one (M-1867 with the crown and the double firing pin for center or rimfire).
It has been made in the Copenhagen arsenal in 1878 as stamped on the tang.
It did not have a rear sight, so I ordered that from Kenn Womack, so the sight in the picture might not be the one issued as standard with my rifle.
Also the rifle appears to be shortened at some point as it only has 2 bands instead of 3 and there is a bright cut-off where the barrel crown (ie exit point of the bullet) would be that appears to be sawed off.
Both barrel and receiver have the same serial number, but there is also a faint number stamped in the wood of the stock close to the trigger guard that doesn't match up (I suspect it to be replaced at some point).

I just thought that the rifle was just frankensteined at some point between beeing sold-off by the army and me obtaining it. But after reading George Laymans "The All New Collector's Guide to Remington Rolling Block Military Rifles of the World" I started to wonder what mine is as it doesn't match all the details.

My rifle has the conversion to centerfire (and will fit a 45-70 case when I trim it down for about 2,5mm), the barrel and receiver have matching numbers, there is a unit disc on the right side of the stock (C-H), the crown shows just above the M-1878, and it's from the Kopenhagen arsenal, but what got me puzzled is that the upgraded rifles all should have a crown and a 96 stamped on the barrel between the receiver and the rear sight, and mine is just nice steel without any markings.

I suspect it to be a rifle that might have been used to shoot hooks onto ships and therefor had the barrel shortend at some point, but I found no details about this of any kind, and also the absence of the upgade markings to centerfire seem a bit odd.

[Dekker]

And some more pictures, just to add detail

[Dekker]

And the last ones, hopefully this gives enough information.

[rudybolla]

Sight looks right to me. I believe the Danes did make a short M67 rifle. The more we learn about Scandinavian rolling blocks, the more questions arise.

[ehull]

For a military rifle, the location of the front sight looks incorrect. The Danish rifles all originally used a sword bayonet, and there would be a stud & guide bar on the right side of the muzzle. If arsenal shortened it would still be made to accept Some type of socket or sword bayonet- does your rifle look like it would still take a bayonet?

[762x51]

Hello,

Can you post some in focus photos of the proof marks?

Regards,
Orin

[jbw]

The danes didn't have a short rifle, yours ave been civilian shortened.

[satx78247]

Dekker,

I strongly suspect that your NICE rifle was one of the several hundred that were "reformatted" by the Copenhagen Arsenal & then issued to The National Foresters (We Americans would call them: Game Wardens.) in the post 1896 period.
(I've seen photos of 2 Forester rifles that look like your shortened rifle.)

It MAY have also been shortened or "sporterized" by a civilian gunsmith at some other time, too.

In any case, I consider that NONE of the Danish M-1867 or M-1867/96 rifles to be "collector's items" (other than an untouched/documented M-1867 RIMFIRE original), as nearly ALL of the Danish M-1867 rifles have been refinished, rebuilt, re-chambered and/or "modernized", with some of the rifles have been "worked on" as many as 2-5 times in the 1880-1940 period in Scandinavia & perhaps elsewhere.

That said, I wouldn't take love or money for my Copenhagen arsenal-rebuilt M-1867/96 Danish-built RB in 11.7x56mm, as I plan to HUNT wild boar & Red Deer with it in Eastern Europe & perhaps in Southern Africa & South America.
(Fyi, I'm planning to retire to Nicaragua or Panama in 2017, where I can live like "minor royalty" on my Army pension.)

Fwiw, I'd like to find a M-1867/96 (that has a GOOD bore but that needs complete refinishing) OR a Swedish/Norwegian 12.17x44mm (or one of the re-chambered to 12.17x54mm) RB to make into a "Forester rifle".
(In the interest of my OLD eyes, I might well mount an old German-made 3X scope on it, as my "garage sale scope" dates from the PRE-WWI period.)

Addenda: Your rifle's serial number & mine are only 90 apart.

yours, satx

[jbw]

Never heard of a danish "forrester", the swedes had them, rechambered for 8x58R. Most shortened danish rifles was used by fishermen for hunting seals.
And I think you are wrong anout the collector items, the rechambered rifles show the development of arms in the danish army, from the rimfire to the smokeless period, and parallel to that you find rifles built only in centerfire for the shooting clubs.

[satx78247]

jbw,

You MAY well be correct about SOME of what you posted but then you may NOT be.
(Fwiw, I've been emailed by a retired Danish military officer, who told me that the Copenhagen arsenal shortened several hundred 3-band rifles for the Forestry workers. YES, some rifles ended up in Greenland for hunting seals, too.)

yours, satx

[satx78247]

jbw,

It's now 01JUL2016 & I think that I should apologize for "upsetting" you by saying that nothing but an unmodified RIMFIRE M1867 was a "collector's item". While ANY firearm MAY be "historically significant", (at least in the USA) "modified" or "sporterized" firearms do NOT sell well, as they are NOT "original to the era" when they were made.

That said, SOME firearms that LOOK nothing like they were originally manufactured are VERY EXPENSIVE today. - For example a "rather ordinary looking" Model 1895 Winchester "shortened" rifled-musket recently "changed hands" for (reportedly) over 30,000.ooUSD.

That "shortened" rifle was authenticated as "the favorite rifle" of a famous TEXAS RANGER Captain.
(I suspect that that "short" rifle will end up in the Texas State Museum in Austin OR in The Texas Ranger Museum in Waco.)

yours, satx

[jbw]

I am not offended. As you say it yourself, the world is not black and white. I am not much for sporterized guns either, but they have their place in the history, I would guess a lot of muskets were carried out west in USA.
When it comes to the danish rolling block, it started out as a rimfire, then went to central fire, and then went to smokeless, some (carabines were even rechambered for 8X58R and used in the coastal defense, then comes the model bought for the shootings clubs, (some kind of territorial army) they were bought as centerfire, and do not have the hole for the rimfire pin, which one of these, do hot belong to the history? On top af it all, comes the RB produced under license in denmark in superior steel - that's their history
And I would add, retired danish officers is not the best historic source, I have bought several shortened RB from danish fishermen, all had a very cruel front sight. The fishermen used them when the got a seal in the net.
If the arsenal had shortened them, they would have reinstalled the front sight!

[vulture]

This is very interesting too me for the simple reason that I am not a collector but an accumulator, which means that every firearm I own is meant to be used, so with this in mind the reworked, or modified rolling blocks are a great interest too me, and I suspect to many others out there in the shooting world, in fact I would much rather purchase a nice reworked usable rifle or handgun than an one in original condition that is too valuable to be used, especially if you are going to kind of beat it around, in an out of the gun safe, knocked over at least once or twice at the range, etc. Every firearm has it's place, and those who find it of great interest and worth. I have several of these old rolling blocks, one in 7mm, a .43 Spanish Argentinian, a .43 Spanish Reformado, and a .50-70 New York State model, all of them I reload for and shoot, and I love them all. The old single shot rifles, of any country or design are fascinating to me. Stew.

[Johnboat 225]

What of the "C.H." button on the stock? Any opinions? By the way, interesting gun.

A quick Google search shows similar disks with characters stamped on them. They are referred to as Danish unit markings. I did not find an example marked C.H.