"French Model" Rolling Block?

[kotkinjs1]

I purchased a Remington Rolling Block I originally thought was the early Type 1 Remington-made Danish contract rifles (model 1867) due to the crown but absent the Danish-applied serial number on the receiver. But having just received my copy of Layman's 'Remington Rolling Block Military Rifles of the World' in the mail today I now think it's possibly a French Model? I read through it and paid special attention to the Danish section. Doesn't seem to fit. Went a little further and got to the French section (pg 81). Started looking though it and I think that's what I've got here. The only thing that seems to be missing/swapped are two out of the three barrel bands with the "U"s versus crowns. All else is in order - the later breech block (post Aug 1870), tang patent dates, crowns on the receiver, barrel, and hammer with no other receiver markings, the G inside the circle on the buttstock, saber bayo lug, rear sight. Anyone else have this book and can confirm?







You can't see it well here but there's a crown on the hammer....

[kotkinjs1]

Got the Berdan cartidge in the mail today - fits like a glove! Well, the hand inside the glove I guess is the more correct analogy. The extractor closes flush with the rest of the breech and the rolling block seems to sit flush on top of that when closed making a tight seal. No wiggle or anything sticking out at all.

So that would mean this is an unaltered Greek contract rolling block sent to France probably in the latter half of 1870? One of about 9000?







closed over the round...

[tjack]

You'd be far better off making a chamber cast. A .42 Berdan cartridge will fit an 11mm Spanish chamber quite nicely because the two cartridges have almost identical rim and base measurements. However, an 11mm Spanish will NOT chamber in the Berdan rifle as the bullet is of larger diameter therefore the neck of the case is larger. If you want to use cartridges as measurements, try an 11mm Spanish cartridge. Reading other posts on this site and Geo. Layman's recent book on Rolling Blocks, it seems that few "Greek" models were left in their original configuration.

[kotkinjs1]

Yes, I was just recently told that as well. I've got a 43 Spanish case coming in the mail to try. It should be okay to test with just the brass, correct (no bullet)? I couldn't find any single Spanish cartridges out there to buy just one.

[tjack]

Not necessarily. A virgin case (never loaded ie. a new Bertram) would need to be expanded to accept a .439" bullet (considered standard for the 11mm Spanish). I made the following neck measurements from some factory loaded 11mm Spanish cartridges. Spanish mfg: .461", .460", .458" (Cuba). US Cartridge Co.: .457"; WRA Co.: .457"; Eley (English): .461".
Prevailing wisdom states that the Greek models had their chambers "opened up" to accept the larger diameter 11mm Spanish cartridge. The bores were left alone. Therefore, it does no good the measure the groove diameter at the muzzle. The surest way to tell is with a chamber cast. Rolling Blocks have to be the easiest rifles to make casts of. Remove the hammer and breech block, make sure the chamber is clean and pore in molten cerrosafe. There is nothing to get in the way.

[cobradane]

Hello.. I have a carbine that has similar markings and configuration as your rifle. In studying Layman's book pages 81-89 for the French RB's and pages 90-94 for the Greek I am sure that your rifle originally was manufactured by Remington in NY for the Greeks in cal .42 Berdan. The crown marks are a good indication of the Greek heritage. Note that the Greek crowns are different from the Danish in that the Greek have a small cross at the top. The G in a circle indicates the rifle was sold to the French for their war with Prussia in 1870-71. When this war was over, a lot of the RB's were sold to a Belgian firm which re-chambered the guns into .43 Spanish. As mentioned elsewhere in this tread, a .43 Spanish will also accept a .42 Berdan, but not the other way around. I have both cartridges and can confirm this fact.

On my carbine there are several marks on the barrel under the handguard which confirms that my gun went to Belgium. It has 3 Liege proof marks and the mark of the Belgian firm of Glivet et Freres (a small G in a circle), which rechambered the gun into .43 Spanish for sale to Venezuela, possibly via the NY firm of Schyler, Hartley & Graham.

The Old Western Scrounger in Sacramento, CA (www.ows-ammo.com ) recently sold me some brand new .43 Spanish which my carbine just loves to chew up. A bit expensive, but the brass is beautiful and, of course reloadable.

cobradane.

[kotkinjs1]

So an empty (never formed) 43 Spanish case seats properly. Don't have an actual cartridge with a bullet yet and still have to buy chamber casting materials/eqpt (was hoping to have this answered by now, lol) so a little more research to do.

Oddly enough though, 43 Spanish doesn't seem to be in the Cartridges of the World book I just bought. If I did the chamber casting does someone have the complete measurements for that round I'd need to compare it against?

Also, cobradane, sadly the underside of my barrel is pitted just enough in various places that I wouldn't be able to tell if there were Liege stamps on it.

Jeremy

[tjack]

Just as well with COTW (Barnes). It has LOTS of errors. I randomly picked 6 cartridges I listed neck measurements in a previous post and measured the base diameter: .522", .512", .525", .518", .521", .514". As you can see tolerances in the late 1800s were nothing like what we take for granted now. You have the cases; I would suggest slugging the bore (run a .45 cal. muzzle loader round ball or a SOFT .45 cal bullet) thru the bore and measure it. It will probably be somewhere around .439". If so, use a bullet designed for the 11mm Spanish and fire form your cases. Once your cases are fire formed to your chamber they will probably not fit any other 11mm Spanish chamber with out resizing. The up side of this is that you may not need a set of reloading dies. You should be able to get away with just sizing the neck of the case. You will have to feel your way thru this. Some of my rifles need cases neck sized and some just need slight belling of the case mouth to seat a new bullet. You will be dealing with low pressures so the base of your cases should not be expanding to cause difficulty putting them back into the chamber.
In general, I find that resizing 11mm Spanish brass squeezes the neck down too much. The expander plug then has to work the brass to open it back up for the bullet. This will require annealing if you expect your brass to hold up.

[jbw]

It's danish, 11,6 mm, crown on both reciever, barrel and band