Greek Models ?

Topics related to Pre - 1898 Remington Rifles
ehull
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by ehull »

For the bayonets, Remington purchased Chassepot types in Germany, so they would not be uniquely identifiable.
It will be interesting to see if the .43 Spanish cartridge fit.
defnat
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by defnat »

In France, among bayonets supplied by Remington, we find some "generic" models made in America and some rare model Navy. Others are of European manufacturing style Chassepot, but without the tiny mortise. I think that the RBB Greek was not any more made with this small tenon when France purchased the contract at the end of 1870.
Remington made then only a single model whom one can call "French Model" in .43 Egyptian.
For those already built, I do not know...
ehull
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by ehull »

It appears Remington shipped 4 types of saber bayonet to France: the Chassepot style without the small mortise for the Egyptian rifles, a separate type called the Greek Sabre in Remington's records (I believe to be the Chassepot style with small mortise) for Greek Model rifles, a type similar to the unique US Navy Model 1870 but with a curved blade (for the Navy Model 1870 rifles), and brass hilt bayonets called "American Sabres." These last have an American style, completely brass hilt and a curved, yataghan blade 20-1/2 inches long. I bought one of these in France, nearly new, many years ago. They were shipped to France with Remington Spanish Model rifles.

Remington and other dealers also shipped "generic" socket bayonets with Spanish Model rifles.

The question remains, why did Remington and French records list the Greek Model rifle if there was no difference that was visible?
ehull
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by ehull »

Philippe, You know about Franco-Prussian War weapons. I am writing a book about US weapons shipped to France. Please write to me: edatbeach@adelphia.net
defnat
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by defnat »

I collect bayonets for a long time and I can tell you that here we do not meet saber bayonets of import with the small mortise (Greek model?). If you know one, I am willing a picture.
The saber bayonet RRB Navy has the straight blade made by Ames for the USN. In reference books on bayonets, model with the blade yataghan is given as export for Mexico only.
Here are some saber bayonets which we find in France :

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There is no Greek model noted in the French registers, the only track are some "Greek" part of lot of 6,640 rifles sold at auction on April 21, 1873 and in a second auction on September 15, 1878, 9202 Greek Remington without bayonet... Does it mean that there were rifles without sb like Spanish?
ehull
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by ehull »

Philippe, thanks for the very good photos.
I believe the Greek Sabre is the same as the Chassepot, but made in Germany where Remington got all of its similar saber bayonets. Remington called them the Greek Sabre to tell the difference from the Egyptian Sabre (which has not extra little mortice). They shipped so many more Greek Sabre bayonets than Greek Model rifles because the French could also use the bayonets on their Chassepot rifles. When the Remington Greek rifles were sold without bayonets in 1873 & 78 the bayonets were probably kept for use on the Chassepot rifles. See Puaud/Mery book, pages 232-3. The only way a collector could identify a likely Greek Sabre bayonet is by finding a German made Chassepot bayonet with no serial number, likely made by Alex Coppel or Kirschbaum (from which Remington bought Egyptian Sabres).

The saber bayonet in photo no. 2 is what Remington called the “American Saber.” It has a ribbed grip on the hilt. Janzen (no. 4-4) calls it the Remington Export, I call it the 1870 Remington Export because it was made for only a very short time in that period. Puaud/Mery picture it on page 183.

There were no U.S. Navy Model 1870 Sword Bayonets shipped to France with the M1870 Navy rifles. Navy and Springfield Armory records are clear that the Navy did not sell bayonets with the rifles. Records show that Remington obtained and shipped 10,000 “Navy Sabres” at the same time as the rifles were shipped. Just as in the fact that most M1870 Navy rifles shipped to France were not inspected by the Navy, the “Model 1870” bayonets that Remington obtained were also not inspected--the Navy did not inspect weapons for commercial sale. The only type of bayonet which fits the M1870 rifle that is uninspected is the type with the yataghan blade; the straight blade types always show Navy inspection. Later these “Remington M1870” bayonets were likely sold as surplus to Mexico after the war.

The story of these various 1870 Remington bayonets will be published in the next journal of the American Society of Bayonet Collectors.

Thank you for the dates of the surplus rifle sales: 6,640 + 9,202= 15,842 but Remington records show they shipped only 15,000.

In the photo of the three saber bayonets, the type with fish scale hilt on either side of the M1870 are the Ames Export, Janzen 4-1. The first record of the sale of these is in the late 1870s, well after the F-P War. They are more common than the 1870 Remington Export.
defnat
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by defnat »

It is impossible to fit a saber bayonet Chassepot on a RRB. The barrel of the Chassepot is 17,5 mm one diameter, Remington is 18 mm.
defnat
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by defnat »

I received my cartridge in .43 Spanish. It was made in Sevilla in 1881
Image

Image

It is almost similar to Russian, both are well in my rifle.
tanpatsu
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by tanpatsu »

Thanks Philippe. Wow very interesting! If you don't mind at your convenience, would it be possible to get a few photos of the rifle; in fact if they would be similar to those you posted here would be fine. Reason being its the first Franco-Prussian War era .43 Spanish Remington I have seen with a barrel longer than 30.5 inches, to include the first I have viewed having the Circle G without a saber bayonet lug, as well as the caliber other than .42 Berdan. If you could contact me at bendestet@yahoo.com, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

George
ehull
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by ehull »

Philippe,
Here is a photo of a Remington RB sabre bayonet with the extra mortise. It is marked Chatellerault and 1871 on the blade. I am trying to get the measurement of the muzzle ring bore from the friend who sent the photo. Perhaps this was intended for the Remington Greek Model Rifle.
Attachments
Greek Rem saber bayt lo.jpg
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tanpatsu
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by tanpatsu »

Hi Philippe,
Ed, I don't know if you had this done previously, but if not, I wonder if it might help if someone on the coming RSA research team trip could measure the diameter of the muzzle areas of the Greek example in the Remington archive room, and then perhaps you could compare the inner diameters of all bayonet examples that you obtain information on? In addition, though I know the presence of the tenon would make it difficult, but if it could somehow be determined if a standard Egyptian saber bayonet would at least give an indication to fit the museum's Greek rifle might also be of interest. For some reason I get the feeling that like several other pieces in the Remington archive collection, (i.e. examples of Argentine and Egyptian Models in the non-standard .50 caliber etc.) that the brass tag #117 Greek model in Ilion is a pre-production prototype or tool room pattern model that didn't go into production as intended. Hence, a reason why no collectors in France (at least to my knowledge) have ever uncovered a Remington Greek Model or another Remington made rolling block with the identical tenon feature. In a somewhat related matter, these .43 Egyptian rifles with the KM markings, seem to be among the earliest in this caliber and two of the dozen or so known, also have a faint J.O.B. cartouche as well. Hope this is of assistance.

George
ehull
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by ehull »

George- I will ask the team. Good idea. Ed
defnat
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by defnat »

Hello Ed,
I know this Saber Bayonet built in january 1871 at Chatellerault, the internal diameter of the ring is 18 mm. It is an emergency product during the FP war
Philippe
ehull
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by ehull »

Philippe, This shows that there were Greek Model rifles in France that needed this special bayonet. Maybe the Greek Sabres that Remington shipped were intended for use on any Remington rifle that had a saber lug--making them interchangeable. Ed
defnat
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by defnat »

I found two interesting documents in archives. The first one is extracted from the parliamentary committee about the purchases of weapons in USA during the FP war. About Greek Remington, it's indicated that France acquired the contract of 15 000 rifles " Egyptian model " ordered by the Greek government on May 12th, 1870. ( Official Journal of the French Republic, in January 10th, 1874)

On the second document, we see that the Egyptian and Greek rifles delivered in France are both marked in calibre .44

Image

Philippe
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