Greek Models ?

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defnat
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:47 am

Greek Models ?

Post by defnat »

Hi all, my name is Philippe, from Britany in France.
If anyone can please help me correctly identify these rifles !!!
The first "bright" is in caliber .43 Egyptian, flat breechblock, serial number G 429xx.
The second is in .42 Russian or .43 Spanish, i'm not sure because I have no cartridge.
Concave breechblock, serial number C 832xx

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Thanks !
Philippe
ehull
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by ehull »

Philippe,
The top rifle has the characteristics of the Egyptian Model, thousands of which were shipped to France in 1870-71. It is correctly in "bright" finish--only a very few of the first ones sent have blued barrels and parts. The bottom rifle has the characteristics of the Spanish Model in .43 caliber. It is not a Greek Model because it lacks the unique saber bayonet bar/stud. We do not know what the large "G" mark on the buttstock means. The inspector's mark on the Egyptian Model is common for that type--I have one just like it.
defnat
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by defnat »

In "Remington Rolling Block Military Rifles of the World" George Layman indicates that the "G" mark in a circle stamped on the butt served to identify the rifles that took the russian ammunition, witch fit only a small percentage of the rifles sent to France in 1870-71.
As well as the crowns would be marked on them Greek contract rifles " French Models " in Egyptian caliber.
I know how to only think...
Philippe
ehull
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by ehull »

Hello again,
In this instance George's book is incorrect. While the .42 Russian cartridges were used extensively as a replacement for the .43 Spanish by the French ordnance department (the .42 conveniently fits the Spanish Model chamber) that is not the Greek Model caliber. Originally the Greek Model was chambered in .43 Greek. But when Remington diverted the Greek rifles to France it was easy to ream out the chambers to the longer .43 Egyptian. I hope to tell this story in more detail in a future RSA journal article. Your rifle with the "G" mark appears to be a Spanish Model, which shows that this mark does not mean Greek Model. Ed
defnat
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by defnat »

Thank you Ed. I do not know .43 Greek, has what looks like the cartridge?
Philippe
tanpatsu
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Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:06 am

Re: Greek Models ?

Post by tanpatsu »

Hello Philippe,
Regarding the .43 Greek cartridge, I have a copy of an 1878-1880 UMC broadsheet, which displays this cartridge alongside both the .42 Berdan and .43 Spanish, as well as the .43 Egyptian cartridges. In reality, the .43 Greek is a secondary nomenclature of the 1874 French 11mm Gras cartridge. This came about simply because the Greek designed, single-shot Mylonas rifle was chambered for the French Gras cartridge, and for reasons unknown, the cartridge was soon coined the .43 Greek. The Mylonas somewhat copies a rolling block style action, thus the UMC broadsheet also mentions that the .43 Greek is intended for the "Grecian Remington" rifles. Interestingly, not long after the Mylonas rifle was dropped, Greece also adopted the French Gras rifle as well. It would be impossible that that the original 1869/70 Greek Remington rifle used in the Franco Prussian War, could have been chambered for the so called .43 Greek cartridge as this round was introduced long after (four years) following the F/P war to include having been developed in France. In my book on pages 83-84, is a Greek model Remington that was removed from the French Engineer and Artillery Museum School Museum by the occupying Germans in 1940 and was brought back from a Nazi depository in Augsburg, Germany to the United States in 1945 by a US Army ordnance officer. This particular rifle would accept only the .42 Berdan cartridge following close examination during our photo session at the publishers studio. At least eight out of some 20 or more identically marked Greek models I have previously owned such as yours with the crowns, and the Circle G cartouche, accepted only the .42 Berdan and not the .43 Spanish. Being that your rifle remained in Europe since the war of 1870 ( I am assuming it remained in Europe), .....please try to at least obtain a .43 Spanish cartridge and fit it to your rifle. It is my feeling that it will protrude close to 1/8 of an inch...Simply because only those Greek contract rifles viewed thus far which returned to the US had their chambers "throated" or rather "bushed" in this country to .43 Spanish for resale to the Latin American
market. In essence, those which never were re-exported to the United States, such as yours, should indeed have remained in the original .43 Berdan chambering. Hoping this may be of assistance.

Best Regards,

George Layman
tanpatsu
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by tanpatsu »

Philippe,
One last item I neglected to mention. The possibility also exists that your Greek marked Remington may be in .43 Egyptian...Looking a bit closer at the open breech, the chamber appears to be much larger than the normal .579 diameter base of either the .42 Berdan / .43 Spanish cartridges. Additionally, the J.O.B cartouche on the left butt is often, if not most often, found on Greek models that were rechambered to the very popular .43 Egyptian cartridge which accounts for the majority of the rolling block calibers received by France in the War of 1870-71. Look closely for an "E" beneath the forearm on the middle band, or elsewhere on the stock. This appears to indicate such rifles were converted from .42 Berdan to .43 Egyptian, giving a hint so to speak to French logistics personnel. I have one of the Greek marked variations in the .43 Egyptian chambering and is in identical "bright finish" and condition. Do not however neglect to inspect the caliber of the other G marked rifle (without the bayonet lug), and do try to obtain a .43 Spanish cartridge for an evaluation on both rifles.

George Layman
defnat
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by defnat »

Thank you George, I ordered one cartridge in .42 Russian and one in .43 Spanish. I wait to try.
The RRB with crowns is good in .43 Egyptian, I tried a cartridge. The number 44 on the stock is a French marking and I am sure that it did not return to USA, it always stayed in France. I do not see " E " on the wood.
With the serial number, it is not possible to know the month and the year of manufacturing which would correspond to a contract of a country?

I have a copy of the list of boats having delivered of weapons in France during the conflict of 1870-71. The indicated total delivered is 121,762 rifles Egyptians, 3,200 Spanish, 18,530 Remington Springfield ( Navy ?) and in a column only one delivery of 5760 " Berdan cal .42" (They are maybe Greek?).
I did not count the other models (Enfield, Springfield, Snider, Sharps, Spencer, Winchester, ...)

Best Regards,
Philippe
Last edited by defnat on Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tanpatsu
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by tanpatsu »

Hello Philippe and thank you for your reply!
I am happy to hear that you confirmed my suspicions that the your Greek crown marked variant was indeed verified as a re-chamber to the Egyptian cartridge. I am afraid it would be difficult to date a particular rifle as to a shipment. However my own take on this is that once word had gotten to US exporters that the both the .43 Spanish and .42 Russian Berdan cartridge had obviously become a dilemma regarding ammunition interchangeability, thus the wisest course of action would be to simply take the remaining .42 caliber Remington Greek rifles and re-ream the chambers to the larger .43 Egyptian cartridge which was by then, firmly established as perhaps the primary French cartridge as far as Remington rolling block rifles were concerned. My feeling on this though is that such an undertaking must have been accomplished not long before the cessation of hostilities with Germany in May of 1871, simply because a fair number Greek model Remington rolling block rifles in .43 Egyptian caliber have been circulated in the USA for several years, most of which have been in very good, if not near excellent condition. This also could be evidence that a number of the 9,202 rifles in the original .42 Berdan caliber never made it to France, and were part of the once advertised "French Models" shown but once in the 1876 Remington factory broadsheet. The problem here though is
that between 1873 and 1878, supposedly all 9,202 Greek rifles in .42 Berdan caliber were sold at auction in France. With this in mind, it could well mean that these .43 Egyptian chambered Remington Greek rolling blocks were not part of the equation, as a total of 13,500 of the Greek contract Remington rolling blocks was the original specified quantity ordered by Greece in late 1869. Trust me, after 46 years of studying the military rolling block, the Greek version almost appears to be the "rolling block that never was," overtly due to its appearing in three different calibers at times; a convoluted but detailed story that has mystified all! Anyhow your Circle G marked rifle minus the bayonet lug will be an interesting one to solve...that is after you receive your .42 and .43 caliber cartridges! If it turns out to be chambered in .42 Berdan, it will be the first discovered without a bayonet lug but marked with the ubiquitous G. Incidentally, of those .43 Spanish caliber rolling block rifles shipped to France viewed thus far. all have had two barrel bands and a 30.5" barrel much like a Remington Civil Guard Model...however none had the saber bayonet lug. An example is in my book in the section under France. Anyhow, take care for now Philippe.

Best,
George Layman
Dick Hosmer
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by Dick Hosmer »

Hello Philippe, and also thank you for the (unexpected) information about the "Springfield Remingtons".

This data might help with solving, or at least throwing some light on, another RB "mystery".

Could you please supply a link to the source of the shipping records?

Thank you very much!
defnat
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Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:47 am

Re: Greek Models ?

Post by defnat »

Hello Dick,
It is copied in a register preserved to the archives of the Army with the loads by boat and the detail of the delivered weapons. Concerning Springfield Remington it is indicated:
- 17 october 1870 : "Ville de Paris" Brest from New-York : 520
- 22 october : "Fairy Queen" Havre from London : 20
- 01 november : "Fairy Queen" Havre from London : 220
- 02 november : " Saint-Laurent" Brest from New-York : 1000
- 30 november : "Lafayette" Brest from New-York : 1060
- 16 december : "Ville de Paris" Brest from New-York : 2120
- 09 january 1871 : "Pereire" Brest from New-York : 5580
- 11 february : "Lafayette" Bordeaux from New-York : 190
- 01 march : "Ville de Paris" Bordeaux from New-York : 2600
- 20 march : "Pereyre" Havre from New-York : 2680
- 05 may : "Pereyre" Havre from New-York : 2640

Total : 18530 rifles
Philippe
Dick Hosmer
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by Dick Hosmer »

Thanks again for the detailed breakdown!
ehull
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by ehull »

For clarity, the "Springfield Remington" is the Remington conversion or "transformation" rifle musket. A total of 21,500 were shipped to France, but French receipts show the lesser number.

How can the Remington rifle version with the crown mark be both .42 Berdan and .43 Egyptian and both called the Greek Model? That would be unsupportable in the field. There must be a distinguishing characteristic to be a Greek Model, like always having the bayonet stud bar AND tenon. Also, I have a standard French delivery Egyptian Model with the JOB cartouche (no crown mark), so this is not a distinguishing mark.

There were 15,000 Greek Model rifles delivered to France, along with 18,800 Greek saber bayonets. In other words, the bayonet for the Greek Model is unique from the Egyptian Model, so the rifles must have had the original stud bar and tenon.
defnat
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by defnat »

I am surprised with the number of 18,800 Greek saber bayonets imported in France. It seems that nobody here did not see this model among the collectors. The bayonets of Remington were always a problem during the war. Enough few Egyptian saber bayonets were delivered during the conflict what obliged an emergency manufacturing in France to equip the sent rifles.
defnat
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Re: Greek Models ?

Post by defnat »

I received my cartridge in .42 was made in Russia in 1892

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Patroniy Tulskaiye Zavod 92

It returns good in my RBB...
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