58 Roberts

Topics related to Pre - 1898 Remington Rifles
Post Reply
RAR45110
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:41 pm

58 Roberts

Post by RAR45110 »

I just acquired a transformed rolling block rifle chambered in 58 caliber Roberts. It has the longer lower tang. The breechblock base is concaved with a morised plate, indicating pre-August 1870 manufacture. The rifle has screwed convex barrel bands with spring retainers and stamped with a "U". It has a tulip cleaning rod, indicating Remington as opposed to Springfield manufacture. It has a sliding extractor. The butplate is not marked with either U.S. or any other marking I can see. I believe I can see the remnants of the ESA cartouche on the buttstock, but it is hard to make it out. Someone said that Remington transformed rifles in 58 Roberts were possibly part of the 5,000 ordered by South Carolina since they also ordered 5,000 Roberts conversions. The thought being that transforming the 5,000 Remingtons to 58 Roberts would keep the amunition the same for both conversions. Did anyone other than South Carolina order transformed rifles in 58 Roberts? Does anyone have any idea who this rifle was manufactured for? I understand that over the years that parts and wood could have been changed out, making this harder to determine. Is there a way to bring out the ESA cartouche without damaging the wood? I am in the process of making 58 Roberts amunition to be able to shoot this rifle.

Thanks,

Bob

marlinman93
Posts: 255
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:47 pm

Re: 58 Roberts

Post by marlinman93 »

Just curious about your description of the "longer lower tang", which was only used on Sporting Rifles from what I've seen? Does this longer lower tang have the extra hole, and wood screw going into the wrist like a Sporting Rifle has?

wlw-19958
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: 58 Roberts

Post by wlw-19958 »

Hi There,

The "transformed" rifles used what have been called the
"type 1" action. These actions did not have a step where
the barrel shank screwed into the frame and had the longer
lower tang with an extra wood screw at the lower end.

As mentioned, these actions were used to convert .58 caliber
muzzle loaders to the "Remington System." The head of the
.58 caliber cartridge was wider than the standard rolling block
breech so a mortise cut was made in the face of the breech
block and a metal piece was inserted to extent the width of
the breech (one have to realize that early metallic cartridges
were the "folded head" type and were not very strong).

I'm not sure why your stock has the "ESA" cartouche unless
the stock was one of the surplus Springfield stocks Remington
bought for conversions (or Erskine S. Allen made the inspection
of these rifles for South Carolina). Most South Carolina rifles
have a "SC" stamped on them on the upper tang or the tang
of the butt plate.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

RAR45110
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:41 pm

Re: 58 Roberts

Post by RAR45110 »

Hello,

Thanks for the information. I know this is a transformed 58 caliber musket with the longer lower tang needed to fit the inletting in the 58 caliber musket stock. Yes, the lower tang has the bolt through the stock and a wood screw on the extended part of the tang. It is chambered for the 58 Roberts and may or may not have the ESA cartouche. That is why I was asking if anyone had a method to "bring out" a cartouche to make it more visible. It is very difficult to see, or I am imagining it. Layman says that Remington bought 4,070 musket stocks from the ordance department in June of 1868. If mine has an ESA cartouche, this could be how this happened. I was trying to see if anyone has more information than what I have gotten from the book by George Layman or the book by Richard Hosmer. Layman shows an apparent South Carolina transformed rifle, but says the S C on the buttplate tang is inconsistent with the South Carolina stamp. Does anyone know if Remington made 58 transformed rifles chanbered in 58 Roberts for anyone other than South Carolina?

Thanks,

Bob

wlw-19958
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: 58 Roberts

Post by wlw-19958 »

Hi There,

The French Government bought a lot of transformed
rifles from Remington at the beginning of the Franco-
Prussian war. Most of them were then sold as surplus
to the Belgians and were re-barreled to 43 Spanish and
sold mostly to South American countries as Spanish models
(there was one of these sold recently on GunBroker Transformed Rifle )

Some other countries bought transformed rifles in the
58 caliber (I believe Cuba bought some).

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

ehull
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:04 pm
Location: So. California

Re: 58 Roberts

Post by ehull »

Bob,
Only South Carolina bought the Remington transformation in .58 Roberts.

The stocks bought by Remington were more likely stock blanks — but if actual machined stocks, Remington would have removed any cartouches in reconfiguring the wood with a slimmed wrist to fit the frame.

RAR45110
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:41 pm

Re: 58 Roberts

Post by RAR45110 »

Thanks again for all the information. As I suspected, since my rifle is chambered in 58 Roberts, it is most likely a South Carolina rifle. As I stated earlier, I cannot tell if it has a cartouche or not. I am satisfied that this was one of the 5,000 bought by South Carolina. Stocks, butplates, and other parts may have changed over the 150 years of existance.

Thanks,

Bob

wlw-19958
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: 58 Roberts

Post by wlw-19958 »

Hi There,

I was re-reading the George Layman's book on
military rolling blocks and in the section on South
Carolina "transformed" rifles, he lists the caliber
as .58 Berdan. This may be a mistake but it is what
is written there. Also, the example he shows is of
the later (post August, 1870) flat breach configuration.

Of course, if your rifle definitely has the "ESA" cartouche
on the stock, Layman is of the opinion that this would probably
mean it is one of the "transformed" rifles that South Carolina
send to Ilion for conversion (even if it doesn't have the "SC"
stamp on the tang).

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

oldremguy
Posts: 208
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: 58 Roberts

Post by oldremguy »

Here is a photo taken in Newberry S.C. of a teenager holding one of the .58 caliber Transformed rolling block rifles.


Teenager with .58 Transformed Rolling Block Rifle.jpg
Teenager with .58 Transformed Rolling Block Rifle.jpg (985.3 KiB) Viewed 560 times


Have a Good Day,
Matt

weburnforaliving
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:37 am

Re: 58 Roberts

Post by weburnforaliving »

wlw-19958 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:47 am
Hi there...

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb
Webb, sorry to post on this thread with something that doesn't pertain to it, but it seems that the thread is done and I've been trying to track you down via practicalmachinist, yahoo forum, and chaski. I have a clausing 5912 with old style master and slave cylinders on the varispeed drive and I'm looking to purchase the seal kits from you, as well as other parts if you have them. I'm too new of a member to contact you privately or else I would have gone that route initially. Please contact me so I can discuss parts with you at your convenience. Thanks in advance. Service@WeBurnForALiving.com

-Jon with no h

P.S. Sorry oldremguy for the thread-jack

Post Reply