Is this a real gun?

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Mattmatt61720
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:12 pm

Is this a real gun?

Post by Mattmatt61720 »

Hi guys new to the site, I’m usually over the Colt forum so if anybody asks, do not tell them I am here... Just having a laugh. I was doing some research on the buffalo soldiers and came across an old auction I don’t know if the gun is sold or watt but do you think there is any validity due to it or the other is serial number range for so-called buffalo soldiers guns question why they even issued to the ninth cavalry? Figured you guys would be the ones to ask here’s the link. Thank you very much Matt https://www.gunbroker.com/item/887702563
aardq
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Re: Is this a real gun?

Post by aardq »

Hi Matt,

Yes it is a real gun. I realize some folks on the "C" forum have trouble recognizing a real gun when they see one, but this gun is real. :D :roll:

The US sent the "Colored Troops" ie, the 9th US Cavalry out west. There are some books written about them. They were called "Buffalo Soldiers" by the Indians, because the Indians said that their hair was like buffalo fur. First, the gun is marked as belonging to the 9th., second, the serial is in the correct range of the guns issued to the 9th. Cavalry. So yes, this is a genuine, historical, 9th. cavalry revolver. Some research in the National archives might even turn up a name of one of the men the gun was issued to.

Daniel
Mattmatt61720
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:12 pm

Re: Is this a real gun?

Post by Mattmatt61720 »

Daniel,

I guess I left my chin out for that one! Thanks for the response I appreciate it. If you or anyone could point me in the directions which way to research I would be happy to do it and would enjoy the task. I’m new to Remington’s like I said although it does seem like a fine handgun. It seems a little pricey for what it is, if I could prove it’s provenance my guess would be a little closer to the 2000 to 2500 range does that seem right?. Thanks again and have a great weekend
aardq
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Re: Is this a real gun?

Post by aardq »

Hello gain,

It looks genuine, but it's hard to put a value on any gun without having it in hand for a personal inspection. This is one of those guns that actually has a story, with the 'K Co" "9 Cav." Most US issue guns never had a unit stamped on them, so this is a unique gun. It will be worth whatever a person feels it is worth. The text admits that it is an old re-blue, but how old? No way to know, and the edges have been rounded more than necessary for a re-blue, and they weren't rounded when re-blued by a govt arsenal .

The cylinder is numbered, something that Rem seldom did. They numbered the cylinder only when there was some kind of hand fitting involved, and they did it to ensure that the cyl, got in the correct frame. This cyl number doesn't match the gun, so it is probably a replacement for a damaged cylinder. Seller claims that it is only 108 numbers from the serial, but that isn't true, since we don't know what the rest of the serial number of the cylinder's original gun was. It can be tens of thousands of serials away. The Govt. did refurbish weapons that were re-issued, but this gun was made in Dec, of 1864. By that time the Union didn't have the same need for guns as a year earlier, and this gun may have been put in stores, and never been issued for CW service.

As to research, sorry that I can't help. I know that units recorded what guns they were given, and some unit recorded that name of the soldier that was issued a gun. Those records may be in the national archives, or may be in state archives. You should try the Springfield armory research: springfieldresearchservice.com and the National Archive and Records Administration (NARA). www.nara.gov

Good luck,
Daniel

PS How's the chin? ; )
Mattmatt61720
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:12 pm

Re: Is this a real gun?

Post by Mattmatt61720 »

My chin is a lot better now that I have that information. Thank you for asking. I’m going to pass on the gun I’m not very big on the factory re-blue and not all matching numbers. I decided to go with a “lesser option“ of a non-re-blued all numbers matching 1858. Numbers match on the frame trigger guard and barrel grips original and the gun action is tight in fact the only thing that seems to wobble on the gun is the front loading lever. What do you think? Value? It’s 1964, I’ll have to grab the serial number
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aardq
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Re: Is this a real gun?

Post by aardq »

Hey Matt,

Glad to hear the chin is doing better. Nothing like a little good info to make ya feel better. Even without it's finish, that looks like a nice gun. Send the serial and I'll look up the mfg month & year. Does it have inspector's marks and a cartouche?

An FYI, although called an 1858 by many, this is actually a New Model Army, made 1863 to about 1870. Some also call it an 1863.

Daniel
Mattmatt61720
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:12 pm

Re: Is this a real gun?

Post by Mattmatt61720 »

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It looks like 81492 maybe 31492. All of the numbers match under the trigger guard frame and under the loading rod. I can see the number is 492 scratched into the grips with pencil. All inspectors marks that I could find I took pictures of in the cartouche is visible where it was stamped but I cannot make out the letters inside. Thanks again for all your help Dan I truly appreciate it
aardq
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Re: Is this a real gun?

Post by aardq »

Hi Matt,

I sure am glad that you have a good sense of humor. I hate sending those nasty letters to the "other" gun associations, complaining about the conduct of their members. You're the kind of person we like to have join us.

Thanks for the pic. My choice is for 31492, which makes if made in, Aug. 63 if an Army, and Mar. 64 if a Navy Model. Yup, it has lots of inspectors' marks, and an almost invisible, and unreadable cartouche, thus it's a US contract gun. Because of the marking on the barrel, I'll guess that it's an Army, and just has had the "New Model" stamped on this gun.

Welcome to the RSA.
Daniel
Mattmatt61720
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:12 pm

Re: Is this a real gun?

Post by Mattmatt61720 »

My mother would certainly yell at me if I did not represent well. I’m excited to find out the information about the gun I appreciate it greatly. It definitely has that been there done that look and certainly looks like it has seen its fair share of use. I’m a little surprised that Remington doesn’t keep better records or maybe I just don’t know the whole story behind that. Anyway at all to find out about issuance? If not I get it it was a long time ago. What do you think the approximate value of something along the lines of what I have is? Other than that I’m excited to put my Civil War stuff together and make one heck of a display. Daniel thank you very much I appreciate your time and effort in information
Mattmatt61720
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:12 pm

Re: Is this a real gun?

Post by Mattmatt61720 »

Daniel I just reread your post, do you think they added the stamp new army to the gun? I read somewhere that there was a transition from 10,000 to 20,000 in the serial number group do you think that could be part of the transition.? And they added some bits or made some modifications? What are your thoughts?
aardq
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Re: Is this a real gun?

Post by aardq »

Hi Matt,

Remington's production process is a problem. The made items, put them in bins, and left them until needed. Initially, the stamp, "New Model" was added to the end of the second line. At some point the stamp became the third line. It is very likely that 2-line New Model barrels were assembled after some number of 3-line New Models, only because they sat in a parts bin after the change to the 3-line was made. This really screws up things for collectors. Parts were not numbered before assembly, this example is just to show that features often appear on later numbered guns than they should. I have the last DD shipped from the factory in 1942, but there were at leas 1500 DDs made after this one, but they were shipped in 1931-1935. This one just sat on a shelf longer than all the others.

Rem kept some records, but we really don't know what. About the turn of the 20th century, a RAC bean counter discovered that RAC was paying for a storage facility that contained records of an unknown type. The powers to be told the bean counters to stop paying just to store records. Thus, much of Remington's history disappeared. They just didn't care about future collectors. Some records did survive, but even today, the company isn't sure what records they have. RSA used to send a research team to Ilion once a year, but with the 2020 breakup, we don't know if they will let us back in.

Yes, you can make a very nice display of your pistol.


Daniel
Mattmatt61720
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:12 pm

Re: Is this a real gun?

Post by Mattmatt61720 »

Ha! Worse then colt. They had a fire in 62? Now that I think about it that’s why the Remington contract came about but anyway they lost all the records prior to that after that they have a pretty good database in fact you can Google the serial number and within seconds have make model and year of production. Some of the serial numbers are redundant so it might list five or six guns but it’s pretty easy to narrow down. I appreciate the site and I’m picking up the vibe that values are not discussed. No problem, that’s all we do over at Colt. Discuss values, buggered screws, wrong sights, I’ll fitting hand grips and the like. It seems like a pretty decent policy as there is a strong rule about only buying and selling in the slotted forum section. It seems like there is a strong urge to have buyers show pictures and ask questions about fair value of guns they are buying and/or selling. Possibly something to consider here as it keeps a pretty decent leash on some people who might try and screw the new guy out of his hard-earned money. I’ve been enjoying the site and commenting here and there where my basic knowledge could be of some help thanks for having me and I’ll be visiting fairly regularly. Thanks again, Matt
aardq
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Re: Is this a real gun?

Post by aardq »

Hi Mat,

The biggest reason not to give any value, is that without having gun in hand, all you can go by is the photos, and make a guess. Photos have been known to lie, and the quality of photos varies. It's often easy to spot a refinish when in hand, and all but impossible from a photo. Just too many variables that photos just can't show. Then factor in any misunderstanding of the basis of an evaluation, or a description,and suddenly the RSA and it's members have a bad reputation, that may never be completely straightened out.

You may see something on this site like, "Recently, a Model xyz, in 90% condition, sold at auction for $$$$." Now everybody has a different interpretation of what % condition any given gun has. Your 80%, may be my 70%, and someone else's 90%. I've often seen gun condition listed at a level that I think was over rated.

In brief, it's just not worth it.

Glad that you're enjoying this site.

Dan
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