RESEARCH PROJECT: BELT/RYDER REVOLVERS

Topics related to Pre - 1898 Remington Pistols
Little_BigMan
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:24 pm

Re: RESEARCH PROJECT: BELT/RYDER REVOLVERS

Post by Little_BigMan »

Dan, thanks so much. Now that, gives me perspective on this. Greatly appreciated. Always happy to walk the path of truth. I generally have a lot to learn. - LBM
Henry II
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Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:24 pm

Re: RESEARCH PROJECT: BELT/RYDER REVOLVERS

Post by Henry II »

I have an early Rider in very good condition. Shoot it frequently.
It works both DA and SA, but the SA is just the last pull of the DA.
There's no catch or lever to choose between DA and SA. You find the SA sear by pulling the hammer SA style, then there's a short travel DA style to get the hammer over the edge. The pull is rather stiff. You cannot adjust the SA sear for a smooth action like you can do with an SA-action-only gun, you still have to do that last pull. I always shoot it SA style. I get a better grouping that way. One just have to learn when one is at the breaking point in order not to have that stiff pull deflecting the shot.

The Riders weren't produced in any great numbers, and I rather think that was due to failing popularity, as the SA-only guns where better shooters.
CALIBRE44
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Location: Florida

Re: RESEARCH PROJECT: BELT/RYDER REVOLVERS

Post by CALIBRE44 »

HenryII...I would like to add your Rider to the survey.
The opening post explains what is needed. Thank you......Jim
Henry II
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Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:24 pm

Re: RESEARCH PROJECT: BELT/RYDER REVOLVERS

Post by Henry II »

CALIBRE44 wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:55 pm HenryII...I would like to add your Rider to the survey.
The opening post explains what is needed. Thank you......Jim
Hello Jim, you already got my Rider logged
CALIBRE44
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Location: Florida

Re: RESEARCH PROJECT: BELT/RYDER REVOLVERS

Post by CALIBRE44 »

Thank you........................................Jim
MacArtesh
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:22 am

Re: RESEARCH PROJECT: BELT/RYDER REVOLVERS

Post by MacArtesh »

Hello

I personally own the following Belt/Rider :

Rider n°1890
.36 caliber
Round Cylinder
Standard Barrel length
Small Blade iron made sight
Blue finish, brass trigger guard originaly silvered
Wood Grips
E marking on the brass trigger guard
Adress and patent marking on two lines

Belt n°4230
.36 caliber
Round Cylinder
Standard Barrel length
Blade brass made sight
Original finish unknown
Wood Grips
G marking on the brass trigger guard

Belt n°4297
.36 caliber
Round Cylinder
Standard Barrel length
Blade brass made sight
Blue/Brown finish
Wood Grips
CALIBRE44
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Location: Florida

Re: RESEARCH PROJECT: BELT/RYDER REVOLVERS

Post by CALIBRE44 »

Thank you for the info. Will add them to my list. Jim
aardq
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Re: RESEARCH PROJECT: BELT/RYDER REVOLVERS

Post by aardq »

Scrolling through this post on the Belt models, Henry II said that not many riders were made. Jim hasn't replied with numbers, but I have helped him collect info, and what he has found are serials up to 10022. That is almost 2x what most people though was the total made. Another surprising result is that of 218 guns recorded, 129, or 59% are DA, while 92, or 42% are SA. Reverse of what most people have thought.

Now 218 out of 10022 isn't a significant enough number to make assumptions, but it does show an interesting trend. Of course, the next 200 numbers found could easily reverse this. Most research requires a minimum of 10% (or 1000 in this case) before making any assumptions. Hopefully, one day Jim will have that amount.

Dan
Patbar
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Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:14 am

Re: RESEARCH PROJECT: BELT/RYDER REVOLVERS

Post by Patbar »

Here is my blued Belt model serial 4219. As you can see, it has a 6 1/2 inches round barrel with a blade front sight.

http://www.remingtonsociety.org/forums/ ... ew&id=5708
Attachments
Remington Belt gauche.jpg
Remington Belt gauche.jpg (276.54 KiB) Viewed 4827 times
CALIBRE44
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Location: Florida

Re: RESEARCH PROJECT: BELT/RYDER REVOLVERS

Post by CALIBRE44 »

Thank you. Will add it to the list........Jim
Henry II
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:24 pm

Re: RESEARCH PROJECT: BELT/RYDER REVOLVERS

Post by Henry II »

Hi, haven't been on for quite a while, but have regularly shot my Rider's.
There is no real SA function, but there's a "rest" or a "pull by parking" shortly before the DA end (and fall of the hammer), kind of a false SA. To get to the "SA" full cock, it's important to perform a very distinctive pull on the hammer (with your thumb) otherwise one might end up in a situation mentioned by Little Bigman, where things get stuck.
The Rider is difficult to shoot, if you want tight groups. The trigger pull is too long and too hard to allow for precision. And if you try the "SA", you still have the hard pull for a bit and the aim is disturbed. So with my big right hand, I've learnt that when the trigger starts to squeeze the skin between thumb and index finger, I know that the hammer is about to be released.
The mechanism looks very fragile and is rather complicated, in that there's no sears as we know it from the SA revolvers. Here it's all about bringing a slim draw-bar to release the hang-up when the draw-bar is pressed against (introducing a bending force on that slim bar) rod that is pressed or welded into the side of the frame, going half way through the frame (looks like a rivet head on the outside).
I shouldn't really be shooting it. If the fragile parts of the mechanism break, there's probably no easy way to repair it. No wonder that it never got popular.
aardq
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Re: RESEARCH PROJECT: BELT/RYDER REVOLVERS

Post by aardq »

Hi Henry,

Ya made me go check my Rider. It cocks in SA just like any other SA revolver. There is no "rest" or hesitation of any kind. The pull isn't real smooth, actually a bit stiff, but it isn't what I'd consider a real hard pull. All the early DAs had somewhat fragile actions. Exhibit A is the Colt DA Thunderer, Lightening models. The Rider may be the best of the early breed.

Jim is an older gent, and has some medical problems, so I don't know if he is still doing anything with the Belt Models. He is selling his collection. The Belts may be the most interesting of all Rem percussion revolvers.

Dan
Henry II
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:24 pm

Re: RESEARCH PROJECT: BELT/RYDER REVOLVERS

Post by Henry II »

Hello Dan,
thanks for your observations. Mine is a rather early DA, so maybe that explains some of my negative experiences. But then again, I do tend to compare it to my other originals (Colt Navy, Manhattan Navy and Remington New Army .44, all SA) and as far as shooting a tight group, the Rider is far behind, but it is still an interesting part of an early industrial and military effort.
So, questions arise, why wasn't it a success? It was the right size, much handier than the .44. It even looked good. But me thinks it was too inaccurate.
Anyhow, history is full of more or less successful achivements.
Regards // Henry
aardq
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Re: RESEARCH PROJECT: BELT/RYDER REVOLVERS

Post by aardq »

Hi Henry,

It depends on what you call successful. Granted there were only about 5,000 DAs and 5000 SAs, so compared to CW production, a small run. The SAs were made well into the 1880s, so there was a market for them. The DAs don't appear in any catalogs after the 1877 catalog.

By then, Rem was more interested in 1875 production. They had a contract with Egypt for 10K guns. The hope was that there would be more contracts from other countries, but because Egypt defaulted on payment for the rolling block rifles, Rem held back most of the 75 production. Another problem was making the 75s in 44 Rem. By the time Rem switched the 75s to 44-40, it was 1880, and too late to compete with Colt and S&W either home or abroad.

An interesting thought, what would have happened if the 75 was introduced in 44-40 and 45 Colt? Another thought, What if the Belt Models had been also made in a 5 shot 44 or 45?

Isn't gun collecting fun?? : )

Dan
Henry II
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:24 pm

Re: RESEARCH PROJECT: BELT/RYDER REVOLVERS

Post by Henry II »

Hello Dan,
yeah, I find antique gun collecting to be fun, but my wallet doesn't agree.
So, to round it all up, the Rider DA is a very collectible contraption. But, when it comes down to shooting these old beauties, my favorite antique is the Manhattan Navy. I've got a first series, S/N 515, a well balanced pointer. The Remi NA .44 comes in second.
Regards // Henry
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