Reloading Question

[CWarmouth]

I am new at reloading. I have been being mentored by a retired guy who has been reloading for many, many years although mostly handgun stuff. Anyway, we reloaded a bunch of 25 Remington brass with light loads and 60 gr. bullets for my son to plink with. Some of the brass is vintage original brass, some is reformed Buffalo Arms 30 Rem brass, and some is resized Qual-Cart 30 Rem Brass. When I went to chamber them, most of them chambered with difficulty and stuck during extraction. I took them back to my friend's house and he put them in the press with the bullet and powder still in them and ran them through again. Is that OK? For some reason, the bottom 1/4 of the shell had not gotten resized. I don't understand why. He also did not think that crimping them was necessary.

Another problem we encountered was that the shoulders on the Qual-Cart brass collapsed and the neck got pushed down into the shell. After two of those, we quit trying to resize them, and just did the original brass. I don't understand why that happened. He did spray the entire shell with One Shot Lube. Could that be why? The manuals I have say to keep lube off the shoulders and neck.

Finally, one more question... I thought we ought to pull the bullets and powder on the Qual-Cart and Buffalo Arms ammo, resize the shell again, and then reload. He said that wasn't necessary and to just manually chamber them and shoot them one at a time. What do you think about that?

This guy is known as being a very experienced reloader, and there are people who are somewhat jealous (in a good way) that he is helping me get started. He has literally thousands of rounds, he casts some of his own bullets, has every piece of equipment known to man, etc., but I find myself being a little concerned with his attention to detail. Am I fretting needlessly? This ammo is for my 11 year old son's model 14 and I don't want him to get hurt.

[Wulfman]

One problem with trying to answer some of these questions is that we don't know EXACTLY what your friend did.

However....... Here are some tidbits of information.
Many times, when brass is formed from another case, it WILL chamber with some resistance until it is fireformed to the chamber. If relatively light loads were used, they're probably safe to fire. I'm not aware of a 60 gr. .25 caliber bullet that has a cannelure (groove/ring) in it to be able to crimp a case to. And, trying to crimp a case to a bullet that does not have a cannelure is NOT a good idea or recommended.

The older brass gets (as with trying to re-use some original, "ancient" cases), the more brittle it becomes. The person may get a few loadings/firings out of them, but the necks or other areas may split. This doesn't mean there will be catastrophic failures, but the brass needs to be closely inspected after each firing.

I've never used the One-Shot Lube......just the old greasy/liquid case lube stuff (Hornady). I've resized quite a few .30-30 cases to .25-35 (and other cases and calibers) and have not had any problems with collapsed cases.....a few dimples now and then, but they will blow out when they're fired. You have to be careful when doing that and try to do it gradually or in stages.

Hope that helps.

Den

[Rickster]

I would say your friend is OK. It doesnt sound like he is doing a good job of explaining to you, though. And it sounds like he needed to do a better job of checking his die adjustments on the first shell, before continuing to the others. Sounds like he didnt size them far enough. Rounds loaded for 14s need to be full length sized.

Collapsing the shoulder when trying to resize loaded rounds is to be expected. And he probably wasn't all that surprised, but thought it was worth a try since you were using 60gr bullets, especially if he is used to loading for handguns. It happens because the bullet has expanded the neck and wont let it size down. So it jams going into the die and pushes the shoulder back.

If they will chamber and extract one at a time, I personally would do as your friend suggested and shoot them up. Then start over. He probably didnt want to go to the trouble of pulling those little bullets. I wouldn't either. And shooting them will fireform the cases to the chamber, which is a good idea anyway. BUT, his advice is only good for an experienced loader, not you. That is, even though he or I would have no problem shooting them, you or your boy probably shouldnt. I would feel ok because I have enough experience to know if something was going wrong. That is, I would know when to stop. You might not. So...I would advise pulling the bullets and starting over.

[CWarmouth]

Thanks for the advice. I did end up pulling the bullets of the ones that do not chamber easily. Since I am new at this, I don't mind the practice. Now here is another strange thing... ALL of the shells seem to be larger at the bottom 1/4th of the case. Even the ones that chamber ok and even the new old stock. The shells all "bottom out" about 3/4 of the way down on every shell (except the ones I just pulled and resized). This is mysterious to me.

So if you dont crimp the 60 grain bullets, is there not a risk of them being driven into the neck?

Also, I am looking for the following items to purchase if anyone knows where I can buy them or has an extra to sell: crimping die for a 25 Remington; Lee Auto Prime shell holder for 35 Remington and 25 remington; shell holder for 35 remington (for my rcbs press).

[Rickster]

Not sure what you mean by bottom out, but if you mean that rub marks from the die stop 1/4 of the way up the case, that is to be expected. The case walls are thicker toward the head, so they dont expand as much. Or if they do expand, they spring back. On new cases, you wont be sizing much of the case at all, since they havent been fired. Over time, the amount of the case that gets resized will lengthen as the case gets expanded by firing.

Crimping is done with the bullet seating die. The instructions that came with the dies will tell how. Dont crimp if the bullets dont have a groove for it.

The 60 grain bullets are a poor match for the 25 Rem. The 86gr flat nose are slightly better. The only bullet that truly works properly is the 117gr round nose.

Midwayusa.com has the shell holders you are looking for. 25 and 30 rem take the same shell holders as 6.5 SPC. 35 rem takes a different shell holder. You dont have to use the same brand as your dies. Modern day shell holders are standardized.

[umcpumpgun]

CW, I load for all of the Rem. pump rifle ctgs. from 25-20 to the 44-40. A lot of people don't realize that these older cal.,and not just Remington cals. have much thinner walls that the more modern ctgs. we shoot today. I have found over a period of many years that the Lee factory crimp die eliminates lots of headaches. For starters the o.a.l. of the ctg. isn't anywhere as critical as with the roll crimp dies that comes with a regular die set. If your o.a.l. varies very much you will end up with not much crimp or a collapsed case if the case is a little long. It is nearly impossible to mess a crimp up with a Lee factory crimp die. They are very inexpensive and are avaliable in nearly ever caliber. They are diameter specfic,not for any certain ctg. And yes they all need a very good crimp not only so they won't set back,but also will be much more uniform ignition. I have personally put the factory crimp on bullets without a cannelure,but do it with a little common sense. Lee even recomends it. Only one bullet company says not to do it. I know there will be cries of foul after saying this but after lots of shooting I have never seen any ill affects in any way as far as saftey or especially in accuracy dept. I think in the ctgs. we are talking about here they will nearly always shoot better crimped. Remember there is a reason the factory nearly always crimps and they have loaded more than anybody. Trying to load without full lenght sizing for anything but a bolt gun is going to come back and bite you sooner or later. The main thing here is about function and feeding correctly. We aren't loading for a benchrest gun. Also I have had one or two dies sets in the past that when paired with the particular shell holder I was using did not resize enough. There are many varibles. I almost never have feeding problems if I use the correct shape bullet that was intended for the gun along with full lenght sizing and correct o.a.l. along with good crimp.

[Wulfman]

.
A couple of lighter .25 caliber flat-nosed bullets WITH cannelures that could be used (for plinking) are the following.......the 75 gr. Speer and the 86 gr. Remington

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics ... aspx?id=23

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=158268

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?p ... 1601461247


Den

[CWarmouth]

Thank you UMC and Wulfman. I do have several hundred 87 grain pills but none of the books I have provide load data for that bullet. The guy I bought the gun from sent me load data cards for 60 g and 87 g. The card for the 87 g says to load with 25 g of 3031, but he never actually tried that load in the gun. I don't know if that is a pretty mild load or pretty hot.

I have read other places that the Lee crimp die is great, but I don't see one listed by Lee for a 25.

I appreciate everyone taking time to share information here!

[umcpumpgun]

CW, If you will search some of the internet reloading sites or old reloading manuals any data that you find for the 25-35 win ..will fit the 25 Rem.,30-30 for the 30 Rem and 32 Win. special for the 32 Rem. these are acceptiable per the powder and bullet companys. I have used the data for many years with no problem since the only real difference in the cases is the rim.

[CWarmouth]

Good info. Thanks. I have 2 more beginner questions.

1. How can I safely remove the unfired primers from my NOS 25 ammo? To review: I tried to shoot one and I got a hangfire. I puled the bullet and dumped the powder. The powder ignited so I figured the primer might be bad. I pulled all the bullets and powder and now want to reload w/ new stuff.

2. Is the 87 g bullet effective on deer inside of 50 yards? By effective I mean a single shot and short tracking job.

[Wulfman]

Good info. Thanks. I have 2 more beginner questions.

1. How can I safely remove the unfired primers from my NOS 25 ammo? To review: I tried to shoot one and I got a hangfire. I puled the bullet and dumped the powder. The powder ignited so I figured the primer might be bad. I pulled all the bullets and powder and now want to reload w/ new stuff.

2. Is the 87 g bullet effective on deer inside of 50 yards? By effective I mean a single shot and short tracking job.

1. You'd need to lube the outside of the cases again and run them through the sizing die with the decapping pin to drive the primers out.
I've also used a small pin punch inserted into the case and primer flash hole and then gently pushing it up in the press with the die removed and something to block the hole to push the punch against the primer until it drops out.

2. I wouldn't use anything less than 100 gr. bullet on deer-sized game in .25 caliber. There aren't any 100 gr. round/flat-nosed bullets with cannelures (to my knowledge), so they would have to be single loaded in the chamber.

Does the firing pin sound like it's hitting firmly/quickly? It's (also) entirely possible that there is crud built up in the area where the firing pin is and it may not be striking the primer with the force needed to fire the round as quickly as it should be......thereby causing the hang-fires.


Den

[CWarmouth]

Hello Den,

Thanks again. I know for sure that the gun is not the problem. It is meticulously maintained and cleaned. I have been shooting Buffalo Arms ammo through it with no problems at all. That is just getting too expensive, thus my interest in reloading.

So decapping them in the same way you decap fired primers is no problem? Pushing the primers out w/ the press won't cause them to detonate? I've also been told to soak them in wd-40 overnight or to just chamber them w/ no powder or bullet and fire them of in the gun first. Any thoughts?

[Wulfman]

I've never had a primer detonate when using either method......and I've never soaked them in anything. Even if they did detonate, as long as your hand wasn't over the top of the end of the case, it wouldn't do any harm (it would just go "pop").......and, you would have dumped the powder out before trying either method anyway. And, if you soaked them in some oil before doing that, you'd have to wash the cases thoroughly again before loading them to remove the oil residue.


Den

[Rickster]

I have decapped quite a few live primers in my day, and have had a few go off. It is loud enough to ring my ears. But no harm was done, other than needing to clean my shorts. Safety glasses and gloves are probably a good idea.

I agree on the Lee factory crimp, but dont know that they make one for a 25 Rem.

Regarding using 25-35 data. The 25-35 case has a little less volume than a 25 Rem. That means 25-35 data will give lower pressure in a 25 Rem. So it is safe, as mentioned above, but will give lower velocity than reported in the manuals.

25gr of 3031 behind a 86gr Rem flatnose (25-20 bullet) is safe (only 22ksi) and gives about 2300fps. It is a good practice load since it will shoot to about the same point of aim as a strong 117gr hunting load. Recoil is mild. Accuracy will be mediocre. I wouldn't recommend it for deer. IMO anything less than a full throttle 117 gr load should not be used for deer unless you are a very good shot, are good at bullet placement, and will be shooting at close range. I wouldnt want to start a youngster's hunting experience with a wounded deer.

[CWarmouth]

Guys! Thank you. Seriously, this has been one of the most helpful exchanges of information I have ever experienced on the internent. I know I had a lot of newbie questions and I am very grateful for your patience. Hopefully I'll post a pic of my son w/ deer sometime this season.

In the meantime, bow season started here yesterday so I am grabbing my longbow and heading out to an oak tree now.

Thanks again!