1879 Argentine factory overrun???

[charlielima]

Jus tpicked up an 1879 Argentine on gunbroker. It has been reblued by someone previous. seller stated it was 44-90 Remington Special. sold it with BACO 44-90 Rem brass.
However, the brass will not chamber, it is too long. trying to check it out I tried some 44-77 brass, chamberd fine. I then thought that since it is an Argentine military it should be .43 Spanish, bore diameter .439. My paper patch bullets for my 44-77 are cast at .439. These almost fall through the bore. Pressure with a cleaning rod to push it throughthe bore is in ounces of pressure. No sign of rifling engraving. By the way, bore is bright & shiny with rifling to the muzzle. I then tried a loaded 44-77 round with a Lyman .446 grase groove bullet. chambers just fine, placing a bullet in the muzzle, the nose of the bullet is a press fit until the first driving band is reached. I am therefore considering that the caliber is Remington 44-77 BN.
According to what little I have read, Remington had an overrun on production of the Argentine model & sold these overruns on the civilian market. (Remington tang marks are almost gone but some are faintly visible).
So my question for those with the knowledge is: Is it possible that Remington could have sold some on the civilian market in 44-77 rather than .43 Spanish?
One other item, the rifle is in full Argentine military configuration other than: there is no bayonet lug, no Argentine related stampings on the top barrel flat ( there is a R stamped on the left barrel flat just above the wood of the stock) & the barrel length is 36 inches.
Any help in figuring this out is appreciated.
CL

[charlielima]

update to previous post:
Finally am getting the gun room back together so I have a few more tools at hand.
Slugged the bore = 5 grooves right hand twist. Not checking twist rate yet, but with the odd number of lands & grooves it is hard to get an accurate measurement. The best I can get with a dial caliper is .435-.437 across the lands & .440-.442 groove. Obviously since the measurement is not centered the diameters would be a skoshie bit larger.
Loaded 44-77 round with the lyman bullet chambers with the bullet just touching the lands. Bullet diameter at point of contact is .439, OAL is 2.753. The paper patch bullet is a tapered bullet. diameter at the case mouth (including paper) is .439 =/-. cartridge OAL is 3.25. No rifling marks on the paper.
Note, bore is bright & shiney, rifling is sharp. Some of my new barrel stuff doesn't look any better, so the bore (at least in present condition) has not been shot out. SO Do I have a loose bored .43 Spanish or a tight bored 44-77. Granted the original 44-90 Remington special was a .442 but the 44-90 brass will not chamber. Need help from someone better at math than I am.
Just one thought, either someone previous was very skilled with a file & grinder & removed the bayonet lug leaving the barrel contour even, or they paid a machinist to turn down the bayonet lug area & freshen the bore, or paid someone to build a new barrel with these dimensions.
????????????

[JV Puleo]

What does it have for a front sight? The last "Argentine" models were not shipped until long after the contract was fulfilled. Some were still in inventory when Remington went bankrupt and was bought by Winchester and Marcellus Hartley. For instance, according to Ed Hull's data, the last 422 "Argentine" Models were shipped in 1892. Some are believed to have gone to Honduras and some of these may have been fitted with the "short" bayonet lug offered as an alternative by SH&G (but also supplied by R as early as the M1867 Swedish contract.) In any case, the bayonet lugs were silver soldered to the barrels so all that was needed to remove them was heat. This would likely have discolored the barrels but they were easily refinished. Will the rifle accept a Remington Spanish-style triangular bayonet? If so, it may have been altered by R or by SH&G before being shipped.

Also, I've noticed a fairly wide variation in .43 Spanish chambers...at least with the 5 or 6 rifles I have at hand. Also, reloading ammunition was not part of the projected use of most military rifles. It was far more important that they be able to fire dozens, if not hundreds of shots, without fouling to the point of being unloadable so I think we can expect original chambers to be larger, and original bullets smaller, than would result in optimum accuracy today.

[tjack]

I have approx. 10 Rolling Block rifles and carbines made by Remington in 11mm Spanish or altered to Reformado. The smallest groove diameter in this group is .439"; the largest is .445". I have a Whitney type I Rolling Block in 11mm Spanish in fantastic condition and it has a groove diameter of .446". Most of my Remington's have groove diameters greater than .441". Any guesses as to why the Spanish went to the Reformado cartridge???

[charlielima]

Thanks for the info.
The front sight is a square block attached to the barrel (not dovetailed) that has a groove in the top and a brass insert for a sight post. This brass insert is slightly longer than the sight base.
Looked closer under better lighting & there is an area of discoloration on the right side of the barrel that is where a bayonet lug would have been. This area is about 4 inches long & runs from the muzzle back just short of the metal nose cap on the stock.

With the wide variation in bore diameters in the .43 spanish what is the opinion of just considering this rifle a 44-77BN & shooting .446 diameter bullets (77 gr. GOEX Fg Express, Remington 9 1/2 primers)? This load is the same as I use in my Lone Star rebarreled Rolling Block.
With that thought, in MLV's book on buffalo rifles he makes the comment as to why Remington made 2 cartridges that are nearly identical, i.e. .43 Spanish & 44-77 BN. Perhaps the closer tolerances of the newer 44-77??

NOTE: this rifle has been reblued so any & all original finish no longer exists. My purpose for purchase was to have an oldtimer to shoot. Since this rifle is no longer "original" any collector value is decreased so I see no harm is target shooting & hunting with it.
Thanks again,
CL

[tjack]

Many years ago I scored hundreds of pounds of wheel weights. I shoot all my 11mm Spanish rifles. Using either a .439" "Spanish" bullet or a .446" "Mauser" bullet and a collection of various sized sizing dies I have made them work. More recently I've been bypassing my Scotch heritage and actually purchased 1:20 tin/lead which makes shooting these firearms much easier. I have put a .446" bullet thru a smaller bore without any problems, and I can't see that you would either as long as you are not using a very hard lead mixture. You will not want to full length size your cases as that will over work your case necks. Depending on the diameter of the bullet I'm using I frequently will not need to size case necks at all. Other rifles may require a sizing of neck with a .45 Colt or .45 ACP die. For some cases (don't recall off the top of my head which) I size with a .45 Colt seat die.
Good luck! Should be no problem.

[charlielima]

Thanks again.
I am initially going to use the same case & bullets I use in my 44-77. These ("naked" & paper patch) both chamber just fine. Since the largest diameter of the Lyman bullet is just barely touching the rifling & the paper Patch is a tapered bore riding type that does not touch the rifling in this rifle, I was figuring that they should possibly work.
Since the 44-77 brass fits the chamber I doubt that sizing the neck down to a .439 bullet is going to be a good idea either. Too much slop so to speak.
Weather gets a little dryer & I finish this remodeling job on the house I will go & give 'er a try.
By the way, my alloy is a mix&match home brew stuff that is possibly somewhere between 20:1 & 30:1.
CL

[tjack]

I forgot to mention this morning, for those who might be concerned about the larger diameter bullet thru a .439" bore....when the Spanish adopted the 11mm Reformado to replace the 11mm Remington Spanish they only opened up the shoulder and neck of the chamber. The bore was not touched. Barnes claims that the 11mm Reformado has a .454" bullet (and it has a full metal jacket). I've never broken down a Reformado cartridge so I don't know if the .454" is correct but the idea was that they employed a larger diameter bullet than US manufacturers used. And, they used it into the late 1800's.

[charlielima]

I forgot to mention this morning, for those who might be concerned about the larger diameter bullet thru a .439" bore....when the Spanish adopted the 11mm Reformado to replace the 11mm Remington Spanish they only opened up the shoulder and neck of the chamber. The bore was not touched. Barnes claims that the 11mm Reformado has a .454" bullet (and it has a full metal jacket). I've never broken down a Reformado cartridge so I don't know if the .454" is correct but the idea was that they employed a larger diameter bullet than US manufacturers used. And, they used it into the late 1800's.

That little tidbit got me worrying. As in -even tho' it is Argentine, what if they rechambered". Since I got more of my gunroom re-established yesterday I took my bore scope & looked at the chamber. Thankfully the chamber has a shoulder before it meets the rifling.
Since an unknown person previously took the time to remove the bayonet lug & re-blue the entire rifle I'm going to go ahead & consider that the possibility is that it was re-chambered to 44-77 ( the larger diameter neck fits) or it is just a sloppy, or deliberately oversized neck for military combat "fouling " concerns, .43 Spanish & shoot my 44-77 loads in it. At least for a start. More snow today so it will still be awhile before I can get out in the sagebrush & do a little shooting.

One thought on the Reformado diameter. I have read elsewhere that the diameter was around .454. Also I think I have seen in some copies of old firearms ads that several years ago when lots of rolling blocks were imported & being sold for low prices the Spanish Reformado versions were being advertised by some dealers that they were 45-70s or that they would shoot that caliber.
CL

[Yellowhouse]

Don McDowell told me you were the one that bought that rifle...I was awful curious about its originality and was going to contact you but looks like all has been answered to a point.

Like you said the bore diameters varied all over the place. I have a buddy that has a 43 Spanish carbine that for all practical purposes specs out to a 44-77. It even has a .451 groove as does my original roller.

I wouldn't worry so much about what it is (43 or 44-77),and since you are PP, just use the case, paper, bullet combo that works!!!

Curious as to how the seller came up with the chambering.

[charlielima]

I'm going to try both PP & grease groove to see what works best. I did think about getting Lyman's .439 mold but then I thought that since the chamber takes a neck sized for a .446 bullet that necking down & then re-firerformoing would work the brass too much & wouldn't shoot the best any way.
I have no idea how the seller came up with the 44-90. He did say that he had no idea what the original caliber was. Since he said that the original caliber had been removed I don't think he knew much about military RB's. Less than me even.

[Yellowhouse]

Its all about chambering. With .012-.013 thick brass made from either .348 BACO or 43 Spanish jameson I cannot chamber a .446 GG. Had to get .010 brass from RMC to do that. Still, at 30:1 it bumps right up into my .451 groove barrel.

So now I use the RMC for greasers and the BACO & necked up Spanish for PPB.

Oh yes. Remington apparently did sell military syle sporting rifles in the U.S. Aside from the U.S. calibers some were evidently in 43 Spanish. They even sold a military style creedmoor if memory serves me correctly.

Read a little on it and you may have an over-run according to George Laymans book. Seems like the originals were tinned. Whatever the case its still a fine looking rifle.

[charlielima]

Its all about chambering. With .012-.013 thick brass made from either .348 BACO or 43 Spanish jameson I cannot chamber a .446 GG. Had to get .010 brass from RMC to do that. Still, at 30:1 it bumps right up into my .451 groove barrel.

So now I use the RMC for greasers and the BACO & necked up Spanish for PPB.

Oh yes. Remington apparently did sell military syle sporting rifles in the U.S. Aside from the U.S. calibers some were evidently in 43 Spanish. They even sold a military style creedmoor if memory serves me correctly.

Read a little on it and you may have an over-run according to George Laymans book. Seems like the originals were tinned. Whatever the case its still a fine looking rifle.

Sent you a PM on your question.
It is nice looking & the bore is bright & shiney with the rifling visible at the muzzle. & you don't need a magnifying glass to see it. Basically that is why i decided to keep it even tho' it is not the caliber that was stated.
Got more of my gun room back together so I am goingto try taking a piece of the 44-90 REM. brass that came with it & start triming a few thousandths from it to find the OAL of the brass. I realize that the "proper" procedure is is to cerrosafe cast the chamber but I haven't found my cerrosafe stuff yet & my shop is still knee deep in saw dust & wood scraps from this remodel/repair project that has been going on since June, so the "trimthe brasstillitfits" method is all I have right now.
CL

[charlielima]

Guess this would be a "saga continues" deal.
Got my loading bench almost set up & decided to trim the 44-90 brass to check chamber length. Started trimming just a thousandth or so each time. about the time I got the 44-90 brass almost down to 44-77 length It still would not chamber. Got smart & checked the shoulder. shoulder on 44-90 is not same as 44-77. ran the trimmed brass into 44-77 sizing die & brass fit. Just out of curiosity I ran a 44-90 brass into the 44-77 die without trimming, just to set shoulder back. Guess what, it fit. So now I have a chamber that takes 44-90 length brass with a 44-77 shoulder length.
I then seated a grease groove bullet with the crimp the same location on the bullet as with the 44-77. Cartridge wont seat. Kept shortning OAL. Still would not seat with the bullet so short it barely was out of the neck. Pulled bullet, resized brass, reseated bullet to original length- without a crimp- & ran the cartridge back into the sizing die. Chambered just fine. OAL is 2.995.
Guess the next step is to load a couple or so & go shoot. See what the brass fireforms to.
As of now i have no idea what this rifle is chambered for. Currently i gues I'll call it a ".43spanish/44-90Remington/44-77 Bottleneck" let it go at that. At least until it drys out & quits snowing enough to get out in the sagebrush to shoot.

Smokeless was never this fun.
CL

[charlielima]

Weather broke & things have dried out enough to get out in the sagebrush & do a little shooting. Took the old girl out to see what she will do. results as follows:
case dimensions: 44-77 44-90 1879 ARGENTINE?
water capacity: 87.5 92.7 94.3
case length: 2.25 2.44 2.465
head diameter: .516 .506 .512:
neck diameter
@ case mouth: .467 .504 .460
neck diameter
@ shoulder: NOT GIVEN NOT GIVEN .466
shoulder diameter .502 .504 .512
neck length .480 .630 .733
length to shoulder: 1.56 1.70 1.60
Case dimensions taken from “manual of cartridge conversions”. 1879 are dimensions after fireforming.
When loading cartridges for 1879 I either can use BACO 44-90 reformed brass or trim & form NORMA 45-120 brass & run them through the 44-77 sizer die. This sets the shoulder back on the BACO brass so it will chamber. The expander die for 44-77 is used to prepare the case mouth to accept the bullet. Seater die can be used to finish seating bullet after hand seating to almost desired length. The seater die will not collapse the neck enough to allow cartridge to chamber. Both the GG & PP bullets must be run into the sizer die to collapse the neck enough to allow the cartridge to chamber. If this is not done the neck is too large to allow cartridge to seat. Probably will end up getting a Mecham die for this.
Rounds fired today were all reformed brass. Next batch will be fire formed brass that is not going to be resized. 44-77 FL die will set shoulder back too much & over work brass.
Wasn’t trying to check velocity or accuracy today. Only fired 3 rounds of 2 different lengths of PP bullets & 3 each of BACO reformed & 3 Norma loaded with GG bullets. The NORMA rounds put 2 rounds cutting the same hole. #3 wandered off to the left about 3 ¼ inches (or maybe my eyeballs did the wandering)
Cartridge OAL of PP is 3.50, Lyman GG OAL is 2.895. Lyman dia. is .445, PP is .439 plus 2 wraps of .007 Onion skin paper. Though the bullets seem to be a little over size as best as I can measure the slug used to check bore & groove diameter. Recoils was as expected, about the same level as my 44-77.
So I guess it is neither “fish nor fowl”