Am an auctioneer in Western South Dakota and may be selling, what we believe is a Rem. 1870 experiemental carbine, apparently they are quite rare. Can anyone help me with confirming what gun we really have, how "rare" it is. . . (apparently only 314 made?) and any advice in marketing it. Can supply photos, Ser. #, etc.
Thank you for your assistance!
Remington "experimental" 1870 carbine. .seeking information
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stetson605
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Re: Remington "experimental" 1870 carbine. .seeking information
We would need to see detail photo's of the carbine to help you
determine what you may have.
Have a good day,
Matt
determine what you may have.
Have a good day,
Matt
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Remington "experimental" 1870 carbine. .seeking information
The rare 1870 Trials Carbine was not a Navy weapon. It was competing, along with the Allin (trapdoor), Sharps, and Ward-Burton systems, for issuance to the army. Each of the four types was issued as a rifle and a carbine - I am fortunate to have three (hopefully soon to be all) of the rifles and two of the carbines. The Sharps and Remington carbines are by FAR the rarest of the lot. Since there is a very common Model 1867 .50 cal. Navy carbine, a lot depends on length of barrel , length of forend, type of sights, and markings.
The rare one will have a 22" barrel, Springfield M1868 style sights, a 12" forend (with spring on right side) and, the right side of the receiver will be marked US/Eagle/1870. A long sling ring bar occurs on the left side.
The common Remington will have swivels on buttstock and barrel band (which has its' retaining spring on the bottom of the forend). Sights are standard Remington, with front having sloped sloped sides and set in a dovetail slot. The receiver sides are unmarked, but the barrel will have a small anchor proofmark.
So. let us know which it is - the (unlikely) emergence of another trials carbine would be a momentious event.
The rare one will have a 22" barrel, Springfield M1868 style sights, a 12" forend (with spring on right side) and, the right side of the receiver will be marked US/Eagle/1870. A long sling ring bar occurs on the left side.
The common Remington will have swivels on buttstock and barrel band (which has its' retaining spring on the bottom of the forend). Sights are standard Remington, with front having sloped sloped sides and set in a dovetail slot. The receiver sides are unmarked, but the barrel will have a small anchor proofmark.
So. let us know which it is - the (unlikely) emergence of another trials carbine would be a momentious event.
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SharpsShtr
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Re: Remington "experimental" 1870 carbine. .seeking information
Dick,Dick Hosmer wrote:. . . The Sharps and Remington carbines are by FAR the rarest of the lot. . .
Are you referring to the Sharps carbines that were converted from firing the paper cartridges to using the .50 Government round by the Springfield Armory? If so, how rare are we talking? Thanks,
Matt
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is
strong enough to take everything you have - Thomas Jefferson
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed.
In this life we get nothing save by effort - Theodore Roosevelt
strong enough to take everything you have - Thomas Jefferson
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed.
In this life we get nothing save by effort - Theodore Roosevelt
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Remington "experimental" 1870 carbine. .seeking information
Matt,
No, the refurbs - which are very desirable frontier collectibles, but not "rare", were a different animal entirely, retaining nearly all of their original parts, furniture, etc. The main thrust of that program was simply to convert them to use a metallic cartridge.
The 1870 trials arms were "new-made" at SA, and the Sharps version will have the same general features as I outlined for the Remington - 22" barrel, long(er) forend, SA sights, and (I believe) a "musket-type" buttstock, not the narrow semi-crescent of the original Sharps. The actions were made by Sharps, but the rest was SA. With the Rem, SA made the actions, too.
The Sharps trials rifle is displayed on my website [www.picturetrail.com/sa4570af] along with the Ward-Burton rifle and carbine, the 1870 Allin trials carbine, and a production 1870 Allin rifle (which differs from the trials model only in the placement of the rear sight). I am seriously seeking a Model 1870 Allin trials rifle (.50-70, SHORT receiver, with rear sight tight against receiver - in other words just like the matching carbine).
I have never seen so much as a Sharps trial carbine picture, and I have ONLY seen pictures of the Remington. Survival rate is probably less than 5 for the Sharps, and less than 10 for the Remington, though more of both could still be lurking in the brush, misidentified. However, older and wiser (and richer) collectors than I have made almost zero headway in that regard, or, they are keeping mum!
You might be interested in a copy of my recent book on the subject - info on website.
No, the refurbs - which are very desirable frontier collectibles, but not "rare", were a different animal entirely, retaining nearly all of their original parts, furniture, etc. The main thrust of that program was simply to convert them to use a metallic cartridge.
The 1870 trials arms were "new-made" at SA, and the Sharps version will have the same general features as I outlined for the Remington - 22" barrel, long(er) forend, SA sights, and (I believe) a "musket-type" buttstock, not the narrow semi-crescent of the original Sharps. The actions were made by Sharps, but the rest was SA. With the Rem, SA made the actions, too.
The Sharps trials rifle is displayed on my website [www.picturetrail.com/sa4570af] along with the Ward-Burton rifle and carbine, the 1870 Allin trials carbine, and a production 1870 Allin rifle (which differs from the trials model only in the placement of the rear sight). I am seriously seeking a Model 1870 Allin trials rifle (.50-70, SHORT receiver, with rear sight tight against receiver - in other words just like the matching carbine).
I have never seen so much as a Sharps trial carbine picture, and I have ONLY seen pictures of the Remington. Survival rate is probably less than 5 for the Sharps, and less than 10 for the Remington, though more of both could still be lurking in the brush, misidentified. However, older and wiser (and richer) collectors than I have made almost zero headway in that regard, or, they are keeping mum!
You might be interested in a copy of my recent book on the subject - info on website.
Re: Remington "experimental" 1870 carbine. .seeking information
Hello Dick,
On the 1867 Navy Carbines, the right side of the receivers were marked with P/FCW with a anchor stamped under the FCW. Some of the carbines that are encountered without the inspection stamps on the right side of the frame are carbines that people have put together from the carbine barrels that were sold from Dixie Gun Works years ago. Some of the put together guns will have the screw that holds the slide extractor in place on the left side of the receiver. The Navy carbines did not have this screw, they had a small square extractor located on the breech block, like the 1870 navy pistols.
Have a good day,
Matt
On the 1867 Navy Carbines, the right side of the receivers were marked with P/FCW with a anchor stamped under the FCW. Some of the carbines that are encountered without the inspection stamps on the right side of the frame are carbines that people have put together from the carbine barrels that were sold from Dixie Gun Works years ago. Some of the put together guns will have the screw that holds the slide extractor in place on the left side of the receiver. The Navy carbines did not have this screw, they had a small square extractor located on the breech block, like the 1870 navy pistols.
Have a good day,
Matt
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SharpsShtr
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Re: Remington "experimental" 1870 carbine. .seeking information
Dick,
Thanks for the info. I have one of the conversion carbines and didn't think it was that rare which is why I was asking. I'll look for your book on the website.
Matt
Thanks for the info. I have one of the conversion carbines and didn't think it was that rare which is why I was asking. I'll look for your book on the website.
Matt
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is
strong enough to take everything you have - Thomas Jefferson
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed.
In this life we get nothing save by effort - Theodore Roosevelt
strong enough to take everything you have - Thomas Jefferson
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed.
In this life we get nothing save by effort - Theodore Roosevelt
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Dick Hosmer
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- Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:15 pm
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Re: Remington "experimental" 1870 carbine. .seeking information
Hi Matt,
Thanks for the info on the Navy carbine. I had not tried to cover all of the points. The 1867 Cadet, also made at SA (and also pictured on my website) has that same early extractor, but a SLIGHTLY different arrangement of the proofmarks. It was even thought at one time that they used receivers from the Navy carbines, but this is NOT true.
I believe that SA (and of course, I am an SA collector - my presence on this forum is due to their substantial involvement with Remington during the 1867-1872 period) made, or converted, eight long arms having that system:
From a distance, where markings cannot be seen, some of them look (especially to a beginning collector) VERY similar - yet, they are all quite obviously different (mainly due to band quantity and rear sight size) from their "all-Remington" and foriegn-made contemporaries.
(1) 1867 "Transformed" Rifle, long barrel (SUPER rare)
(2) 1867 "Transformed" Rifle, short barrel (rare)
(3) 1867 Navy Cadet (rare)
(4) 1870 Trials Rifle (scarce)
(5) 1870 Trials Carbine (SUPER rare)
(6) 1870 Navy Rifle - Type 1 (scarce)
(7) 1870 Navy Rifle - Type 2 (common)
(8) 1871 Army Rifle (locking action) (common)
I lack (1)(2)(5) with no real hope of acquisition at this point in my collecting life. My last hope for a reasonably-priced "needed" rifle is the 1870 Allin (trapdoor) trials rifle, to go with my carbine - funny, the rarer one found me first.
It will be interesting to hear from the auctioneer!
Thanks for the info on the Navy carbine. I had not tried to cover all of the points. The 1867 Cadet, also made at SA (and also pictured on my website) has that same early extractor, but a SLIGHTLY different arrangement of the proofmarks. It was even thought at one time that they used receivers from the Navy carbines, but this is NOT true.
I believe that SA (and of course, I am an SA collector - my presence on this forum is due to their substantial involvement with Remington during the 1867-1872 period) made, or converted, eight long arms having that system:
From a distance, where markings cannot be seen, some of them look (especially to a beginning collector) VERY similar - yet, they are all quite obviously different (mainly due to band quantity and rear sight size) from their "all-Remington" and foriegn-made contemporaries.
(1) 1867 "Transformed" Rifle, long barrel (SUPER rare)
(2) 1867 "Transformed" Rifle, short barrel (rare)
(3) 1867 Navy Cadet (rare)
(4) 1870 Trials Rifle (scarce)
(5) 1870 Trials Carbine (SUPER rare)
(6) 1870 Navy Rifle - Type 1 (scarce)
(7) 1870 Navy Rifle - Type 2 (common)
(8) 1871 Army Rifle (locking action) (common)
I lack (1)(2)(5) with no real hope of acquisition at this point in my collecting life. My last hope for a reasonably-priced "needed" rifle is the 1870 Allin (trapdoor) trials rifle, to go with my carbine - funny, the rarer one found me first.
It will be interesting to hear from the auctioneer!
Re: Remington "experimental" 1870 carbine. .seeking information
Hello Dick,
I mainly collect Remington Rolling Block Military Rifles, Carbines and Pistols, Did have a few Springfields, but sold them to buy more Remingtons. Still have my Sharps Carbine that was converted from percussion then converted to 52-70 rimfire and then to 52-70 centerfire.
On your list below
(1) 1867 "Transformed" Rifle, long barrel (SUPER rare)
(2) 1867 "Transformed" Rifle, short barrel (rare)
(3) 1867 Navy Cadet (rare)
(4) 1870 Trials Rifle (scarce)
(5) 1870 Trials Carbine (SUPER rare)
(6) 1870 Navy Rifle - Type 1 (scarce)
(7) 1870 Navy Rifle - Type 2 (common)
(8) 1871 Army Rifle (locking action) (common)
I lack (1)(2) and (5) also, had the chance to buy the 1867 "Transformed" Rifle, short barrel twice, but each time they were a little out of my price range. Should of put it on my credit card, have helped keep the credit industry afloat at times buying guns for my collection.
Also I would like to thank-you for putting out a great book, its got a lot of good facts in it.
Have a good day,
Matt
I mainly collect Remington Rolling Block Military Rifles, Carbines and Pistols, Did have a few Springfields, but sold them to buy more Remingtons. Still have my Sharps Carbine that was converted from percussion then converted to 52-70 rimfire and then to 52-70 centerfire.
On your list below
(1) 1867 "Transformed" Rifle, long barrel (SUPER rare)
(2) 1867 "Transformed" Rifle, short barrel (rare)
(3) 1867 Navy Cadet (rare)
(4) 1870 Trials Rifle (scarce)
(5) 1870 Trials Carbine (SUPER rare)
(6) 1870 Navy Rifle - Type 1 (scarce)
(7) 1870 Navy Rifle - Type 2 (common)
(8) 1871 Army Rifle (locking action) (common)
I lack (1)(2) and (5) also, had the chance to buy the 1867 "Transformed" Rifle, short barrel twice, but each time they were a little out of my price range. Should of put it on my credit card, have helped keep the credit industry afloat at times buying guns for my collection.
Also I would like to thank-you for putting out a great book, its got a lot of good facts in it.
Have a good day,
Matt
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Remington "experimental" 1870 carbine. .seeking information
Matt,
Thanks for the kind words regarding my little book. I had hoped it would be of some value to Remington collectors as well. The second half, covering all of the rare TDs (and other SA arms) of 1873-1895, which were not in the basic Poyer/Riesch book, is still tied up at North Cape.
I hope we eventually do hear back from the original poster of this thread - odds are it is a common 1867 Navy, but, hey, you never know!
Dick
Thanks for the kind words regarding my little book. I had hoped it would be of some value to Remington collectors as well. The second half, covering all of the rare TDs (and other SA arms) of 1873-1895, which were not in the basic Poyer/Riesch book, is still tied up at North Cape.
I hope we eventually do hear back from the original poster of this thread - odds are it is a common 1867 Navy, but, hey, you never know!
Dick
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SharpsShtr
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Re: Remington "experimental" 1870 carbine. .seeking information
Matt,oldremguy wrote:. . . Still have my Sharps Carbine that was converted from percussion then converted to 52-70 rimfire and then to 52-70 centerfire. . .
I've heard of the 52-70, but I've not been able to find any information on it. Anything that you can tell me about it, especially as to how it relates to the 50-70? Thanks,
The other Matt
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is
strong enough to take everything you have - Thomas Jefferson
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed.
In this life we get nothing save by effort - Theodore Roosevelt
strong enough to take everything you have - Thomas Jefferson
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed.
In this life we get nothing save by effort - Theodore Roosevelt
Re: Remington "experimental" 1870 carbine. .seeking information
Hello sharpshtr,
My sharps carbine was chambered in .52 caliber, when they converted the cabines from percussion to rimfire or centerfire, any carbine that had a bore greater then 0.5225 they would reline the bore to 50-70. If the bore was under 0.5225 they would not reline the orriginal 6 groove barrel, which would leave the carbine 52 caliber.
The 52-70 cartridge is about the same size as the 50-70. The 50-70 had a case length of 1.75" and the 52-70 was 1.57" long. I believe the 52-70 bullet would of been a heel type bullet, as found in today's 22 caliber ammo. I had a friend open up some of the grease rings on a 50 caliber mold, making it into a 50 caliber heel bullet. I then load it in a 50-70 case when I want to shoot my carbine. They say you can shoot the standard 50-70 cartridge in them, I just don't know how accurate the round would be with a smaller bullet being fired in it.
Hope that helps some.
Have a good day,
Matt
My sharps carbine was chambered in .52 caliber, when they converted the cabines from percussion to rimfire or centerfire, any carbine that had a bore greater then 0.5225 they would reline the bore to 50-70. If the bore was under 0.5225 they would not reline the orriginal 6 groove barrel, which would leave the carbine 52 caliber.
The 52-70 cartridge is about the same size as the 50-70. The 50-70 had a case length of 1.75" and the 52-70 was 1.57" long. I believe the 52-70 bullet would of been a heel type bullet, as found in today's 22 caliber ammo. I had a friend open up some of the grease rings on a 50 caliber mold, making it into a 50 caliber heel bullet. I then load it in a 50-70 case when I want to shoot my carbine. They say you can shoot the standard 50-70 cartridge in them, I just don't know how accurate the round would be with a smaller bullet being fired in it.
Hope that helps some.
Have a good day,
Matt
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SharpsShtr
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Re: Remington "experimental" 1870 carbine. .seeking information
Matt,
Thanks for the information. Mine had the barrel relined, but is still a rather generous .517" - .518" in the grooves with three really wide lands. The chamber is way over-sized as well, both in length and width. To get a good chamber fit I cut .50 - 2 1/2" Sharps brass down to 1.85" and then fire formed it. You can see a swelling just above the case head, but I only neck size it and it seems to do well. It's most accurate with 85 grains of Goex Cartridge, but I feel that the standard 50-70 bullet is a bit undersized for her. One of these days I'll have Steve Brooks make me up a mould of the proper size (his moulds are very good BTW).
Thanks so much,
The other Matt
Thanks for the information. Mine had the barrel relined, but is still a rather generous .517" - .518" in the grooves with three really wide lands. The chamber is way over-sized as well, both in length and width. To get a good chamber fit I cut .50 - 2 1/2" Sharps brass down to 1.85" and then fire formed it. You can see a swelling just above the case head, but I only neck size it and it seems to do well. It's most accurate with 85 grains of Goex Cartridge, but I feel that the standard 50-70 bullet is a bit undersized for her. One of these days I'll have Steve Brooks make me up a mould of the proper size (his moulds are very good BTW).
Thanks so much,
The other Matt
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is
strong enough to take everything you have - Thomas Jefferson
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed.
In this life we get nothing save by effort - Theodore Roosevelt
strong enough to take everything you have - Thomas Jefferson
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed.
In this life we get nothing save by effort - Theodore Roosevelt
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Dick Hosmer
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- Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:15 pm
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Re: Remington "experimental" 1870 carbine. .seeking information
Dear "stetson605":
There is at least one more .50-70 carbine which has not yet been mentioned, that being the New York State contract model. I am not familiar with it beyond Flayderman, since I do not collect the "all-Remington" RBs. It will have a VERY (exaggeratedly so) tall hammer spur, and I believe it has the "locking" action, whereby opening the breech disengages the hammer, allowing it to fall into the half-cock notch when the block is closed.
I suspect there are other random (as per reply to my recent GunBroker query) RB carbines chambered in .50-70 of which I was not aware.
However - the REALLY rare (314 made at SA) model HAS been covered in sufficient detail for you to know whether that is what you have, or not. Could you please end the suspense? Many thanks!
Dick Hosmer
There is at least one more .50-70 carbine which has not yet been mentioned, that being the New York State contract model. I am not familiar with it beyond Flayderman, since I do not collect the "all-Remington" RBs. It will have a VERY (exaggeratedly so) tall hammer spur, and I believe it has the "locking" action, whereby opening the breech disengages the hammer, allowing it to fall into the half-cock notch when the block is closed.
I suspect there are other random (as per reply to my recent GunBroker query) RB carbines chambered in .50-70 of which I was not aware.
However - the REALLY rare (314 made at SA) model HAS been covered in sufficient detail for you to know whether that is what you have, or not. Could you please end the suspense? Many thanks!
Dick Hosmer