Model 1900 Forend Missing

Topics related to Pre - 1898 Remington Shotguns
Researcher
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Re: Model 1900 Forend Missing

Post by Researcher »

Your 1900 Remington was built on the small 16ga. receiver
It should weight around 6 lb. 9oz to 7 lb.
By the number of the barrel lug it was 1 1/8 load and was full and full
I don't understand any of the above. The gun in question is built on the later-style frame with the floating firing pins as would be expected for a 1908 vintage gun. While I certainly haven't seen a lot of surviving hang-tags for Remington Hammerless Doubles, all that I have seen are for 12-gauge guns and all specify they were targeted with 1 1/4 ounce of shot, usually #8 chilled. On page 260 of his book, Charles Semmer shows the hang-tag for a KE-Grade very near this gun, serial number 372340, and as most of the other hang-tags I've seen, specifies it was targeted with UMC NITRO CLUB shell Load No. X 8, in this case 24 grains of Infallible dense smokeless powder pushing 1 1/4 ounce of #8 chilled shot.
dieNusse1
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Re: Model 1900 Forend Missing

Post by dieNusse1 »

Thanks for the response. I would still like to find out if and how it can be determined whether a gun is built on a small or standard frame given the information and photos provided in this post.

I have a 1910 KED small frame that measures 2.25" across the bolster, 1.50+" across the water table and 0.1575" barrel thickness at the breech. A 1902 K standard frame measures 2.375" across the bolster, 1.625" across the water table and 0.1830" at the breech. Just for drill I measured an 1898 AE which measured 2.375" across the bolster.

As to whether the 16 Ga and small frame 12 Ga are the same I don't know. Since I don't have access to a 16 Ga so I can't make any judgements there. I seem to recall an earlier post which gave 16 Ga measurements and, as I recall, they do not match the above small frame numbers.

One last item. My 1910 KED has a diamond shaped spacer installed on the hammer pivot pin between the hammers. It measures 0.341" wide and is blued and well machined/finished. If I didn't know that this part isn't found on any parts list I would assume it's original to the gun. It's that well made in my opinion. In general I don't trust the configuration of 1910 production for the for the '89, '94 or 1900 as it seems they put guns together to use up remaining parts inventory to make marketable guns. Case in point is a 1900 reported on this forum with twist steel barrels from '89 tubes. May have been a special order but I doubt it.

Comments??
Last edited by dieNusse1 on Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Researcher
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Re: Model 1900 Forend Missing

Post by Researcher »

I have a 1910 KED small frame that measures 2.25" across the bolster, 1.50+" across the water table and 0.1575" barrel thickness at the breech. A 1902 K standard frame measures 2.375" across the bolster, 1.625" across the water table and 0.1830" at the breech. Just for drill I measured an 1898 AE which measured 2.375" across the bolster.
You are comparing a new-style action gun with two early-style action guns.

I don't have time right now, but later today, when it gets hot, and I'm hiding in the cool basement, I will measure my guns.

On page 125 of Roy Marcot's book he shows a letter dated February 3, 1910, from M. Hartley Company to Norvell-Shapleigh Hardware Company of St. Louis, selling them Remington's entire inventory of break-action shotguns.
dieNusse1
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Re: Model 1900 Forend Missing

Post by dieNusse1 »

Well - first I assume that what you call new & old style frames is the transition from one piece hammer/firing pin to the floating style firing pin which occurred around 1903 or so. Then the question becomes -- were the small and large size frame made side by side or were the large frame pre 1903 followed by the smaller version afterwards? Not having two differing weapons from the same year limits my vision but I prefer to believe that both versions were produced at the same time. Another option just occurred to me and that is there were more than enough 12 Ga tubes available and not enough frames during the last year of production so 16 Ga frames were used. This would mean that the small frame guns would be only found on 1910 production and maybe some in 1909. Crazy idea but I don't know what the distribution of small frame guns was over the years of production.

Anyone out there have a small frame gun that wasn't built in 1910?

In my opinion if there is any weak point in Semmer's book it's the relative lack of mechanical discussion. Although he does mention frame size differences concerning the '89 12 Ga and earlier E. Remington models there is no reference to any differences in either the '94 or the 1900 -- at least what I can find.
Researcher
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Re: Model 1900 Forend Missing

Post by Researcher »

I think the change happened during 1905. Every gun I have, or have pictures of, up through 131924, the EEN-Grade in the latest issue of The Double Gun Journal, has the early-style action
Location of Early Style Sear Pin
Location of Early Style Sear Pin
Location of early style sear pin 100138.jpg (17.5 KiB) Viewed 5596 times
with the firing pins integral with the hammers. From 132034 on up they all are the later style action with the floating firing pins.
Location of Late Style Sear Pin
Location of Late Style Sear Pin
Location of late-style sear pin 132034.jpg (49.23 KiB) Viewed 5596 times
dieNusse1
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Re: Model 1900 Forend Missing

Post by dieNusse1 »

I understand the transition to the floating firing pin is easy to identify by referring to the sear pin location. However this does not relate to frame size as far as I know.
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Re: Model 1900 Forend Missing

Post by Researcher »

Here are the frame dimensions off the guns I have --
Remington Hammerless Double Frame Dimensions.jpeg
Remington Hammerless Double Frame Dimensions.jpeg (214.34 KiB) Viewed 5589 times
FP C to C is Firing Pin Center to Center.
dieNusse1
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Re: Model 1900 Forend Missing

Post by dieNusse1 »

Thanks for your data.

From what I can see there are a couple of conclusions that can be made. First, the 16 Ga seem to be consistent and were not used for small frame 12's given the firing pin measurements. Second, there is no variation in the firing pin measurements for the 12 Ga. Lastly, there is a lot more overall variation than I thought possible.
2shooter
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Re: Model 1900 Forend Missing

Post by 2shooter »

I have a small frame 1894 12ga. C grade that measure.
across bolsters-- 2.182
across the end of barrels 2.178
across receiver water table---1.572
across receiver at hinge pin--1.528
serial # 123523
Researcher
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Re: Model 1900 Forend Missing

Post by Researcher »

Thanks for the info on a light 12-gauge frame. Could you please add the firing pin center-to-center measurement when you get a chance? Pictures?
dieNusse1
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Re: Model 1900 Forend Missing

Post by dieNusse1 »

Measured firing pins on all my 12 Ga '94s and 1900s. All measure 1 3/16" except the 1910 KED which shows about 1 1/32". So maybe it's a 16 Ga. frame!!!???? I've been putting 12 Ga. rounds through it since 1970 so there's no question there.
2shooter
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Re: Model 1900 Forend Missing

Post by 2shooter »

The firing pins measure 1.020 center to center. I have a 1894 16ga and a 1900 16ga there in the back of safe sometime I will get them out and measure them. I have away by looking at the gun I can till if it is a small frame without measuring the receiver.
Don Doubles
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Re: Model 1900 Forend Missing

Post by Don Doubles »

rdavisabc, the rib extention on a 12 ga. has two grooves for the ejectors and the 16 ga. has a upside down V
Researcher
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Re: Model 1900 Forend Missing

Post by Researcher »

the rib extension on a 12 ga. has two grooves for the ejectors and the 16 ga. has a upside down V
A quick look around I see the two grooves on a 1905 vintage 16-gauge DEO-Grade in my gun room, an 1899 vintage 16-gauge DE-Grade on page 263 of Semmer's book, and a 1904 vintage K-Grade 16-gauge on GI --

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f ... =100872989.

My 1909 vintage 16-gauge KE-Grade has the single V grove. Leads me to think it was a cost-saving measure on the late lower priced guns.
dieNusse1
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Re: Model 1900 Forend Missing

Post by dieNusse1 »

I'm not sure where this thread is going but here is my observation of several 12 Ga guns. A 1902 K has two groves as well as an 1898 AE. Both are Standard frame. A 1910 KED small frame has an inverted V. The 1904 K 16 Ga being offered by GI shows that 2 groves were not unique to 12 Ga.

Unless shown otherwise I agree that cost reduction for K grade guns may have been a factor. Other items such as the "new" butt plate and reduced machining of the locking lugs also appear as cost reduction efforts.
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