Remington Arms Co October 9Cth 1894 reg# 105834

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paulinek
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Remington Arms Co October 9Cth 1894 reg# 105834

Post by paulinek »

Hi, I am the owner of our family shotgun. I don't know a lot except that it was used extensively on the family farm. It is a Damascus double barrel shotgun with Remington Arms Co on the barrel. It has the original parts but since it was used by the family there is wear, with a chip on the butt where some one hit something with it. The original plate is still there with a chip and a crack. Inside it has Patented October 9Cth 1894 with a registration number of 105834. All parts have the same number. I have had the shotgun since 1969 and now it is time for me to hand it over to my first Grandson, who is 19. He has told me he would rather have the cash. Can someone help me with recommendation and approximate value?
dieNusse1
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Re: Remington Arms Co October 9Cth 1894 reg# 105834

Post by dieNusse1 »

Your shotgun appears to be a model 1894. The serial number block for the '94 started at 100000 so yours is a fairly early production.

As I just moved, my copy of Charles Semmer's book The Remington Double is still packed away but I assume a production date of 1894 -1895. The '94 was produced until 1910 when Remington discontinued production of all doubles (1894, 1900 & 1889) as Remington saw the future in terms of pumps and auto loaders.


As for value -- condition is of prime concern. In addition, the '94 was offered in several grades which varied from the plain A to the B, C, D & E etc. Each grade represents increasing cost based on the amount of engraving, checkering, barrel material and quality of wood. The grade of your '94 should be stamped on the water table across from the S/N.
Researcher
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Re: Remington Arms Co October 9Cth 1894 reg# 105834

Post by Researcher »

Remington Hammerless Doubles -- Two patents were issued on the same day, October 30, 1894. No. 528,507 pertaining to the milling of the frame was granted to R. C. Fay of Ilion, New York, assignor to the Remington Arms Company of same place; and No. 528,508 pertaining to the automatic ejectors, to R.C. Fay and G.E. Humphreys of Ilion, New York, assignor to the Remington Arms Company of same place.

If the gun is absolutely plain with no engraving, just "Remington Arms Co." stamped on the side of the frame it is an A-grade if a Model 1894. Model 1894 serial numbers were in the 100,000 range and often preceded by a P a Remington stock letter.

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Also perfectly plain was the lower priced Model 1900 with serial numbers in the 300,000 range, and often a stock letter of Q. These were also known as the K-grade.

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A Model 1894 B-grade had just a bit of borderline engraving.

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As the grades went up C-Grade --

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D-Grade --

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and E-grade --

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the engraving became more extensive, the stock wood and checkering finer, and the overall workmanship better. There is normally a grade letter stamped on the left side watertable --

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or on "bridge-frame guns" (usually 103,500 and lower serial numbers) on the bridge. Like this BE-Grade --

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Also, if you remove the trigger guard, the grade letter is often stamped in the wood after the serial number.

If a Remington Model 1894 is fitted with automatic ejectors the written grade designation has a letter E added to it and if it has Remington Steel barrels an R or Ordnance Steel Barrels an O -- AE-grade (A-grade with ejectors and the regular Damascus barrels), AER-grade (A-grade with ejectors and Remington Steel barrels), BO-grade (B-grade with Ordnance Steel barrels) or CEO-grade (C-grade with ejectors and Ordnance Steel barrels). I’ve never seen these extra letters stamped on the gun’s watertable. In the Model 1900s things are reversed. Remington must have considered their Remington Steel barrels standard and appended a D if the gun was equipped with 2-blade Damascus barrels -- KD-grade or KED-grade. "Ordnance Steel" is normally stamped on the top of the barrels on AO-/AEO- and BO-/BEO-Grade Remington doubles and engraved on higher grades.

You need to check out Charles G. Semmer's book Remington Double Shotguns. It is invaluable if you are going to shoot, invest, collect or play in the Remington double gun field. Remington supplied a number of different pattern Damascus barrels on these old doubles. A picture of their salesman’s sample of the various styles of Damascus available is shown on page 275 of Semmer's book.

Remington Arms Co. stamped the actual pellet counts of their test patterns on the rear barrel lug of their Model 1889 hammer doubles and their Model 1894 and 1900 hammerless doubles. If the number is three digits, that is the count, if the number is two digits a leading 3 is implied. From surviving hang-tags we know the standard load they used to target 12-gauge guns was 1 1/4 ounces of #8 going 511 pellets to the load. My 12-gauge KE-Grade Model 1900 is stamped 33 on the left and 24 on the right. That would be 333/511 = 65% left and 324/511 = 64% right, or about improved modified in both barrels. The chokes measure .027" in both barrels of that gun.

By the end of the first decade of the 20th Century, Remington saw that the future laid with their John M. Browning designed Remington Autoloading Gun (later known as the Model 11) and their John D. Pedersen designed Remington Repeating Shotgun (later known as the Model 10). So, they concluded a deal with Norvell-Shapleigh Hardware Co. of StLouis, for their entire inventory of break-action shotguns in inventory and in process, on February 3, 1910. There must have been a lot of guns involved, because the records show 3206 Model 1894s, and 16435 Model 1900s shipped in 1910. The 1909 Remington Arms Co. catalogue was the last one to include the doubles, and there was a version of the 1909 catalogue that only had the Remington Autoloading Shotgun, the Remington Repeating Shotgun, and the Autoloading Repeating Rifle.
paul harm
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Re: Remington Arms Co October 9Cth 1894 reg# 105834

Post by paul harm »

Whew, now there's a history lesson, children. Thanks.
paulinek
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Re: Remington Arms Co October 9Cth 1894 reg# 105834

Post by paulinek »

Thank you so much for the great information. I love the pictures. My gun is definitely plain but I have always thought of it as beautiful with the cross hatching on the wood and worn, faded Damascus on the barrels. I am amazed how Remington put a stamped registration number on as many small places as possible. On the under side of the barrels is an incised capital A and what appears to be a sideways P a few inches down. I wonder if that was originally an R for right? On the other barrel the sideways letter is worn and appears as a simple line. The catch has a small 8 on one side and a 4 on the other with a character above the 4. The registration number on the trigger plate starts with a beautiful scripted 1. I will put some pictures up. It is a shotgun that served many years on the farm. It was retired after War World II. t has the feel and look of a well use and loved shotgun.

When I got the gun the family said that the triggers had been disabled and the gun could not be fired. But I have a friend who has many guns and makes his own ammunition. He made ammunition and shot the gun. He told me you can not use current ammunition with the Damascus barrels. I realized the "family lie" was to keep us from ever loading and shooting.

I will try and take some good pictures and attach them.

Again, thank you for the amazing history. :)
dieNusse1
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Re: Remington Arms Co October 9Cth 1894 reg# 105834

Post by dieNusse1 »

I made an error when I told you the date of manufacture. I found my copy of Semmer's book and it turns out your gun was produced during 1897.

The numbers. The random numbers and letters are mostly assembly stamps or inspector stamps. The important numbers are the serial number, any grade stamps and the pellet counts.

These fine guns were designed for the smokeless powders of the day. Many owners shoot low pressure (~5000 - 5500 psi or less) smokeless rounds in their damascus barrels. So, if your barrels are in good shape there shouldn't be any problem. I shoot both smokeless and black powder. Black powder is more fun to shoot but a pain to clean the weapon.

The other issue concerning shooting these guns is the chamber length. Modern 12 gauge cases measure 2 3/4' while Remington cut their chambers 2 5/8". My feeling is that the plastic case walls are much thinner than the old style paper cases and shouldn't be cause for concern. Some owners cut the chambers to 2 3/4" which is an easy and simple fix.
paulinek
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Re: Remington Arms Co October 9Cth 1894 reg# 105834

Post by paulinek »

die nausse,
Your memory is good to get that close to the date without looking!
dieNusse1
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Re: Remington Arms Co October 9Cth 1894 reg# 105834

Post by dieNusse1 »

I should have expanded on a couple points in my last post so here goes.

Loaded 2 5/8" cases are available if the chamber is not reamed to 2 3/4". I assume the price will be higher. Also, most shotshell reloading equipment can be adjusted/adapted to produce 2 5/8" shell length.

As for your cracked butt plate -- They are available on eBay -- both repros and originals -- for about $15. Just make sure you get a repro with a Niedler point if that's the way you go. Also, I'm sure there are forum members with one just sitting around. I had one or two in the past but no more.
paul harm
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Re: Remington Arms Co October 9Cth 1894 reg# 105834

Post by paul harm »

I have six Remington Damascus barreled SxS's and shoot them with nitro loads every week [ one or the other ]. You're not going to blow them up with factory ammo, but could shoot it loose or crack the wood. RST here in the USA makes low pressure loads, or maybe another option is the B&P Comp 1. Their 7/8 oz. load is under 6000 psi and the 1 oz under 6500. They're tough to find in a retail store now, but they're readily available online. Most guys like myself who reload try to keep under 7500psi. Good luck.
Researcher
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Re: Remington Arms Co October 9Cth 1894 reg# 105834

Post by Researcher »

The other issue concerning shooting these guns is the chamber length. Modern 12 gauge cases measure 2 3/4' while Remington cut their chambers 2 5/8". My feeling is that the plastic case walls are much thinner than the old style paper cases and shouldn't be cause for concern. Some owners cut the chambers to 2 3/4" which is an easy and simple fix.
Both the A.H. Fox Gun Co. and Parker Bros. held their chambers 1/8 inch shorter then the cases they were intended for. The theory was that allowing the crimp to unroll a bit into the forcing cone gave a better gas seal and improved patterns. I have not seen any evidence that Remington Arms Co. adhered to this theory, but even the Remington era Parker specification sheets show this. There were a couple of articles in The American Rifleman by A.P. Curtis in 1936 and 1938 extolling the virtues of slightly short chambers. By that time he probably had forty or fifty years experience working at our various shotgun manufacturers.

From WW-II to 1988, my Father shot all manner of 2 3/4 inch Super-X, Nitro Express and other lighter 2 3/4 inch shells in his 1896 vintage 12-gauge AE-Grade, and I'm sure that he was doing it before that with the KED-Grade he had from the time he got it in 1933 until he got the AE-Grade. His AE-Grade is still looking just fine in my gun room. Dad gave the KED-Grade to his younger brother when he returned from WW-II, and Dad continued to use it when we visited Minnesota. Here he is with it in 1948 --

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Grandpa in the foreground has his heavy 1890 vintage Parker Bros. Twist barrel PH-Grade which saw plenty of use on a Minnesota farm where he raised six boys. It went to my Uncle Howard and saw limited use until 1984, when it passed to Howard's grandson. My cousins finally did in the KED-Grade in the early days of steel shot, bulging the chokes and breaking the ribs loose.

During the years that Remington Arms Co. was producing their hammerless doubles, the heaviest smokeless powder 12-gauge loads our North American Ammunition manufacturers were offering were 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder, such as Infallible or Ballistite, pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot. These loads could be had in 2 3/4 inch or longer cases. The 2 7/8, 3 and 3 1/4 inch cases offered more/better wadding, not a heavier payload in those days. According to some DuPont shotgun powder handbooks in my collection, those loads produced pressures slightly above our 12-gauge SAAMI specs of today for 2 3/4 ond 3-inch 12-gauge shells.

Of interest, by this 1908 vintage hang tag which says "2 5/8 inch shells" --

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that load x8 was only offered in 2 3/4 inch or longer cases. Between about 1904 and 1907 our manufacturers phased out offering 1 1/4 ounce loads in the 2 5/8 inch 12-gauge case. From then on to WW-II they only loaded 1 1/8 or less in the 2 5/8 inch case, and for 1 1/4 ounce you had to go to the 2 3/4 inch or longer cases.
paulinek
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Re: Remington Arms Co October 9Cth 1894 reg# 105834

Post by paulinek »

Researcher,
Thanks for the information. It sounds like the Remington s were a very popular working shotgun in the 1890's. Ours was used on the Indiana farm. I am guessing they were ordered all across America. True? Shipped by train??
The vintage tag is a great. But the picture of your Grandpa, that is the greatest photo. You are so lucky to have that family picture.
Researcher
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Re: Remington Arms Co October 9Cth 1894 reg# 105834

Post by Researcher »

In the barely 16 years that Remington Arms Co. produced hammerless doubles they made 98508 K-/KE-/KD-/KED-Grades and 41194 of the higher grade A- to EEO-Grades. Add in the 134200 hammer doubles they produced and that is more doubles then Parker Bros. produced from 1866 to WW-II.

Remington had some good press when their professional shooter William Heer carried the high average for 1906 shooting a pair of their doubles --

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Then the next year, J.J. Blanks using their new John M. Browning designed autoloader won the Grand American Handicap --

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and so the die was cast. A few years later William Heer struck again, now using their new guns --

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paulinek
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Re: Remington Arms Co October 9Cth 1894 reg# 105834

Post by paulinek »

Thank you again. My gun is one of 98,508. :) Though from other posts, it seems that some have been ruined through use and error.

You have an amazing knowledge of guns, in particular the Remingtons Pre 1899. Looks like you own an impressive collection of historical pictures and gun ephemera.

I still have to take the pictures of my gun. But I have no idea how to upload a picture. I will search for a topic in the boards on uploading pictures.
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